I thought this was old old OLD news, but I still get this question almost every week . . .

> I have a PAS-3 I'd like to upgrade, boards,switches, volume, jacks, etc.
> what are the sonic differences between the original pc-5 & pc-6
> boards as opposed to your sp-6 and sp-8 boards ?
> also do you sell the boards already built up for a nominal fee ?
> and do any of these board still retain the tone controls ?
> OR is it also possible to ship you my pre-amp and have
> these upgrades done ?

And here is the answer again for anyone interested . . . .

I don't really do PAS3 upgrades, but I have a friend that could possibly do them for you, for parts cost plus $40 per hour, but by then you'd probably have $400 more invested into a $200 preamp, when for about $650 you could buy a complete SP8 kit, and then sell your PAS3 for $200,
so you'd wind up with a MUCH MUCH better preamp for the same out of pocket cost.
See the note on my webpage . . .
"for the ultimate PAS3 upgrade, please see our VTA SP6 page here
www.tubes4hifi.com/pre8.htm
if you want the ultimate PAS3 upgrade, it may make more sense to buy a used PAT4 chassis and install our SP6 kit (or SP8) as it will cost about the same as what a nice PAS3 will sell for,
so you'll wind up with a much better preamp for almost no cost !!

Also as I've posted elsewhere on this or some other Dyna forum, I've owned more than a dozen preamps over the past dozen years, and although some people will disagree with me, the PAS3 sits
near the very bottom of the list. Moving up the list in both price and quality, are all of the classic CJ preamps (PV5 thru PV12), Audio Research SP6, SP8 thru SP11, Transcendence Grounded-Grid, Tubes4HiFi SP6 or SP8, and the Glassware AIKIDO. I believe the Foreplay is overpriced and although better than the PAS-3, certainly not worth it unless you can buy a used one for half price.
On a value basis, especially if you are looking for a preamp WITH a phono stage (rather than just a separate line stage) I know of NO other preamp kit under $1000 that matches the Tubes4HiFi SP6 or SP8.
As for tone controls, you'll have to go with one of the old classics from the 70s or so to get tone controls, most modern preamps do not use them as they have a detremental effect on the quality, and need an extra gain stage to make up the 20db or so of signal losses imposed.
I no longer build finished preamps as they are very time consuming (about 10 hours), however,
I can supply finished PCBs (for $299) ready to install in the chassis of your choice.
See these pages for more info . . .
www.tubes4hifi.com/pre3.htm
www.tubes4hifi.com/pre8.htm

Does the PAS 3 have an achillies tendon or is it a general design problem?

Thanks,
Bugs

Like the ST70, the PAS2 and PAS3 preamps were designed to meet a budget price, and had alot of compromises necessary to keep the price down, however, both products were best sellers and opened up a huge market for tube hi-fi not just 50 years ago but continuing today.
The PAS preamps have 3 main shortcomings
1 - marginal power supply, which also is the limiting factor in the design
of the phono and line circuits.
2 - phono circuit has inaccurate RIAA, and very high output impedance
3 - line amp circuit has very poor tone controls, and very high output impedance
4 - poor quality selector switch with lots of extra wiring and equalization circuits
not needed - All of these problems have a fairly simple fix
1 - replace the original QUAD cap and filament supply
2 - replace and change resistors and capacitors in phono circuit for improved RIAA
3 - remove tone controls from the circuit
4 - remove and replace the selector switch
These changes will help alot and can be done for under $100.
In my personal opinion, this will improve the sound from a 1 to a 2, on my scale of 1 to 10.
You'll still wind up with a 50 year old preamp with poor quality RCA jacks, poor quality
volume and balance controls, and high output impedance.

Thanks for the info.

I've been switching my different preamps (Dyna PAS 3, Audible Illusions Modulus 3a, Music Reference RM 5) in and out of my system this week. So far, my favorite match with my Dynaco ST70 is the Music Reference preamp which utilized one 6922 in the line stage. I used to have a CJ PV 6 but sold it a couple years ago. With the gear I had at the time, it seemed to be too dark and opaque sounding. I borrowed a friend's CJ PV 5 once and loved the sound of that. I don't see many PV5 up for sale these days. BTW: my ST 70 with new Sound Valves board and upgraded power transformer is my favorite amp right now, even compared to my MR amps. It is much more detailed.

I've had dozens of preamps over the past twenty years, and I must say that I do like the Conrad-Johnson line, and the used classics are generally a bargain. Especially the PV5, PV6, PV8, PV10, and PV12. You don't see these for sale often as most people keep them, but I have seen and bought all of these for prices between $400-700.
Roy www.tubes4hifi.com

So how do I lower the output impedance on my PAS3?

myaddiction wrote:So how do I lower the output impedance on my PAS3?

Major rebuild such as adding a cathode follower. And then you would be excessively loading down the stock power supply, including the transformer.

The main audible consequence of driving a too-low input impedance...rolled-off bass...can be ameliorated somewhat by greatly increasing the coupling capacitance from the last tube in the linestage. But that won't cure a major mismatch. Also the same problem exists for the phono stage trying to drive the TAPE OUT connected to a typical transistorized cassette deck, CD recorder, computer line input for burning CDs, or wireless headphone transmitter. Such a low-impedance load will roll off the phono section's bass response. A lot of people do that and wonder why their phono sounds bass-shy compared to CDs; the rolled-off bass will be apparent not just in any recordings that are done, but in normal playback too.

The PAS was designed when such impedance considerations did not exist in any high-quality audio system. There were no good transistor amplifiers, and it was intended for use with tube amps.

I'm almost afraid to ask this, for fear that the answer will make me order an SP8 by noon tomorrow...but, say, Roy, how does the SP8 compare to the Transcendent Grounded Grid pre-amp.

I know you're in a position to have an informed opinion on this, if I'm not mistaken.

-brenton

Hi Brenton,
I've probably tried every tube amp and preamp available for under $1000.
When I first heard the Grounded Grid preamp, I was pretty impressed, especially since it's available as a chinese clone kit for around $100, of course a full DIY project preamp is still gonna run over $400, and you can buy the full kit ready to go for around $500.
I rated it an 8 or 9 on my scale of 1 to 10. At the time, I was rating my SP6 kit as a 7 or 8.
But then I had about a dozen of my own customers write back telling me my SP6 kit sounded better.
I had one customer who actually bought several hi-end classic preamps, including some Marantz and McIntosh gear, and Conrad-Johnson, and Audio Research. I loaned him my Grounded Grid, and my own VTA SP6, and he told me they all sounded good, but none of them had the "magic" sound he was looking for except my SP6 preamp, so he sent the GG pre back and bought my VTA SP6.
I've made several improvements to the circuit since and upgraded several of the component parts, now selling as SP8 with regulated power supplies, and available with h-end resistors and capacitors in a "Special Edition" package. I currently have an extra SP8-SE available for sale ready to go. I also have a repeat customer selling his current SP6 at an absolute steal of a price so he can upgrade to my SP8-SE version.
The OTHER determining factor here most people overlook is that all those other preamp kits are ONLY line stage. My SP6 and SP8 kits are both LINE stage AND PHONO stage, with integrated power supply all on one compact PCB.
Roy www.tubes4hifi.com

Hi Roy,

Thanks for this explanation. Sounds like it would have been better value for me, had your kit been available last Christmas (please confirm for me it wasn't!), since I also got the Transcendent phono stage to go with my GG.

I'm tempted to try your SP8, but maybe should restrain myself for the time being. It's too bad, in a way, we're all scattered so far and wide. Can't get folks together so easily. Then again, were in not for the modern marvel of the WWW, I'd have never found my way to my VTA - ST 70!

gee . . . I wouldn't want to make you feel bad, but yes, I've had this preamp available for about 4 years now.
Some lucky person can grab a nice used one off my website if they hurry . . . .
Roy www.tubes4hifi.com/pre8.htm

On another note, anyone who has done some serious research on PAS3 upgrades would have come across the articles posted by Norman Koren several years ago. I now have ONE SET ONLY of NEW stuffed PAS3 PCBs with the complete Koren circuit on it, includes phono, line, and power supply. Just built, I haven't evaluated it yet or even installed it in a working PAS3 yet, it may be a month before I have time to do that.

Gotta link to that, Roy? I can't find it...

no actually, I don't have a link to it, it's a one only special, email me!
I'll try to post it later here:
www.tubes4hifi.com/koren.jpg