The Dynaco Tube Audio Forum

Dedicated to the restoration and preservation of all original Dynaco tube audio equipment - Customer support for Tubes4hifi VTA tube amp and preamp kits and all Dynakitparts.com products


    tone controls? yes - or no ?

    avatar
    rjpjnk

    Posts : 178
    Join date : 2018-07-18

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by rjpjnk on Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:20 am

    Yes! Give me tone controls.

    To me, well designed tone controls are definitely welcome. I wish there were some way to add them to the SP12 13/14 circuits, but I hear there is not enough gain with the current tubes to do so. If this changes I will definitely buy the upgrade!

    The key is that the controls must be totally defeatable. A simple switch would be perfect.
    Graywulf
    Graywulf

    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2019-04-11
    Location : Wellington, NZ

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by Graywulf on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:26 am

    No.

    First off a quick 'Hello' as I'm a new member, now awaiting a pair of M-125's from Bob, and getting an SP-14 from Roy (hopefully).

    Last amp I purchased with any tone control was the 'evergreen' Arcam A60 in the very early 1980's, which I admit I kept for around 15yrs. Then I became a tube convert, and have never used a tone control since. Tube rolling seems to satisfy any 'tone alterations' I need.
    Peter W.
    Peter W.

    Posts : 1397
    Join date : 2016-08-07
    Location : Melrose Park, PA

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by Peter W. on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:42 am

    Graywulf wrote:No.

    First off a quick 'Hello' as I'm a new member, now awaiting a pair of M-125's from Bob, and getting an SP-14 from Roy (hopefully).

    Last amp I purchased with any tone control was the 'evergreen' Arcam A60 in the very early 1980's, which I admit I kept for around 15yrs. Then I became a tube convert, and have never used a tone control since. Tube rolling seems to satisfy any 'tone alterations' I need.

    At present behind my seat is a Dynaco ST35/PAS3X combination into AR Athena speakers. The volume control averages around the 9:00 position, and my office is 11 x 17. I do not use the tone controls much, but I do use the Loudness Control 100% of the time in order to get a balanced sound. On rare occasion, when I am 'cranking' and the VC goes past 11:00, the Loudness comes off.

    Horses for courses.
    avatar
    Drummerboy2

    Posts : 6
    Join date : 2019-04-28

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by Drummerboy2 on Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:40 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:hey, that was fun, let's answer another question that comes up almost everyday.
    Do you want tone controls?   I don't know, you tell me!
    Do I recommend tone controls?  NO!     Do I use tone controls?  YES!   Confusing?   YES!

    OK, so if you think you want tone controls, the answer is yes, you probably do want tone controls.
    I perfectly understand that not everyone has perfect ears, perfect speakers, perfect room setup.
    I understand there is probably more poorly recorded music, than music that is recorded perfectly!!

    So what you need to know is that tone controls will always compromise sound quality.
    This is because using a circuit with tone controls means you need to have a minimum of 3X as much gain as you do without them.
    A high quality tone control circuit needs 20db of gain to overcome the losses of tone controls.
    Tone controls work two ways, by cutting gain (usually thru filters which just filter those tones to ground) or in worst cases
    by using negative feedback to reduce gain on those tones.
    To boost bass and treble (more likely than reducing it) those extreme frequencies need more gain, more amplification, which can lead to more noise,
    worse signal to noise ratio, more distortion, and usually all the other frequencies (the critical midrange) are subjected to negative feedback.

    These are the things we deal with in order to make the music sound better to our own ears, using our own speakers, our own rooms, our own recordings.
    We do need tone controls to overcome all these short comings, but we have to accept that the compromises involved are not as bad as the results.
    Are they better?   They can be, or maybe not, that again, is a subjective question that only you can answer for yourself.

    Oh, so maybe you'd like my OPINION, rather than the facts as presented above?
    Sure!   Do I like tone controls?  NO!   Do I recommend tone controls?  NO!   Do I use tone controls?   YES!   Sometimes, but I only use them when needed,
    as necessary, and when I am prepared to accept all those limitations to overcome my own personal set of limitations involving my own ears, my own speakers,
    my own listening room, my own recordings, some of which are awful, some have no bass, some have way too much bass, some are tinny, some are hollow.

    Hey, here's an idea for you.   Need more bass?   Get a subwoofer, you can dial in as much boost as you want or need.   And guess what,
    then you don't need a bass control on your preamp!!!   You don't need extra gain, extra noise, poorer circuit design.    What a concept!!!
    So . . . . need more treble?   Gee, let's think about that for a moment.   Maybe I could add an extra tweeter, a more efficient tweeter, one with it's own gain control. . . .

    Hey, here's an idea for you.   Make sure your listening room is at least somewhat enhanced to actually sound better.  
    Do some research, read some books, buy some room treatments.  
    Go all in !!!   Buy a digital DSP EQ system for $10,000 and have it shape and perfect everything to your ears and your room!   Really???   No, I think NOT!!!

    The bottom line - music is for enjoyment, and that is subjective, so do your own thing!!!
    And MY recommendations?   Get the very best speakers you can afford, get your room setup correctly, buy better music, and THEN,
    either buy an SP14 (and a PH16 for phono) or buy an SP9 with tone controls, and then . . . . enjoy the music!!   Simple!!


    I use a SAE 2800 Parametric EQ that I fully upgraded. It works very well with my VTA-120 and other tube gear. Not all rooms are created equal and you will need some sort of room correction and Tone Controls are needed. Its best to have separate Left and Right tone controls.
    tubes4hifi
    tubes4hifi
    Admin

    Posts : 1577
    Join date : 2008-11-30

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by tubes4hifi on Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:42 pm

    here's an EZ solution if you need to add tone controls
    https://jdslabs.com/product/subjective3/
    deepee99
    deepee99

    Posts : 2206
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:06 pm

    Holger, one of our own, has developed his own version of the classic Blonder Tongue B-9 9-octave tube-powered EQ. See:
    http://www.erhard-audio.com/Natalie.html
    It has a bypass switch and double-ganged attenuators for L and R.
    My personal experience with one of his prototypes was salutary. Yeah, I had a few minor, non-signal-related issues he is now addressing relating to user-friendliness, but the actual listening to this critter was testimony enough. The 9 pots on each channel really DO zero-out at zero, the curves are just right to my ears at least, and listened to zeroed-out, adds no component to the line signal.
    Build quality as always is excellent and the dircuit layout hum-free. AND IT's ALL TUBE!
    This monster uses 10 12AX7 tubes which are remarkably cheap -- even good NOS.
    At any rate, I'm clinging onto my demo until Holger remembers to ask for it back, and hoping he's forgot.
    Peter W.
    Peter W.

    Posts : 1397
    Join date : 2016-08-07
    Location : Melrose Park, PA

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:34 pm

    https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/2008529-rare-vintage-dynaco-se10-graphic-equalizer.jpg

    I keep one of these for those few times that the on-board controls are not enough. However, given that equalization is, after all, a form of added distortion, adding the complications of tubes is probably not necessary.
    avatar
    rjpjnk

    Posts : 178
    Join date : 2018-07-18

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Loki tone controls

    Post by rjpjnk on Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:59 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:here's an EZ solution if you need to add tone controls
    https://jdslabs.com/product/subjective3/

    Along the same lines, this Loki works very well. I have one. The input impedance is 50K from the factory, but it was trivial to increase it to 225K by changing two resistors. I did that so I could use it in the tape loop of a PAS 3X. I assume that at 225K it would be okay after my PH12 but I haven't tried it yet because I haven't felt the need to EQ anything.

    Anyway, a very nice EQ, and completely out of the system when the bypass switch is closed (other than impedance loading).

    https://www.schiit.com/products/loki

    Sponsored content

    PAS tone - tone controls?  yes - or no ? - Page 2 Empty Re: tone controls? yes - or no ?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:06 am