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    electrical wiring (House) question

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    electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Sun May 25, 2014 9:49 pm

    do we have a member on this forum who is an electrician, if yes, could you please 'pm' me, as I have a question about house electrical wiring, thank you.

    deepee99

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    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 3:09 am

    I'm not an electrician, but I play one on TV.
    Let me anticipate your question with an answer. Dedicate a 20-amp circuit-breaker and wiring to the outlet you're going to use; and if you've got the resources (i.e. 10 feet of rebar and some heavy wire and a big sledge hammer), dedicate a separate ground for it. Install a MANUAL reset ground-fault interrupter between the wall and the amp(s).
    But what do I know? I majored in English lit with minors in math and Russian.
    Best seek professional help. Smile

    audiobill

    Posts : 270
    Join date : 2014-03-13
    Location : Philadelphia

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by audiobill on Mon May 26, 2014 6:48 am

    deepee99 wrote:I'm not an electrician, but I play one on TV.
    Let me anticipate your question with an answer. Dedicate a 20-amp circuit-breaker and wiring to the outlet you're going to use; and if you've got the resources (i.e. 10 feet of rebar and some heavy wire and a big sledge hammer), dedicate a separate ground for it.  Install a MANUAL reset ground-fault interrupter between the wall and the amp(s).
    But what do I know? I majored in English lit with minors in math and Russian.
    Best seek professional help. Smile

    What gauge rebar gives the best sound staging?? Smile

    GP49

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    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by GP49 on Mon May 26, 2014 9:09 am

    audiobill wrote:
    What gauge rebar gives the best sound staging??  Smile

    Now you've opened up a can of worms.

    Once the audiophreaks get started on this, it won't just be what GAUGE rebar, but an insistence on how many zeros are in the contamination-free specification of the RUST on the rebar.  Audiophile-grade rebar must also cost at least $90/foot for entry-grade, and organically-treated audiophile-grade rebar will sound more - well, ORGANIC.  No, make that (in the words of the "true audiophile") MUCH MORE ORGANIC.

    Which is to say, "bury 'em in bullsh!t."

    After reading posts at other forums for a while, this place is a breath of fresh air.  At one, an audiophreak who claims to have tried dozens of turntables costing up to six figures, scores of rare and expensive tonearms, and hundreds of handmade cartridges at from hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars (he's in Mexico...to do that he must be a drug kingpin, or he's from the Old Money that sold their oil companies to the Mexican Government) has the assembled humble masses bowing at his feet, proclaiming him as the Second Coming and the Pied Piper, both rolled up into one.  At another forum, a prevailing belief is that you can take a garden-variety 1970s Japanese receiver and transform it to perfectionist-grade by changing all the capacitors.  Among THOSE partisans is a substantial contingent who then report that after doing this, the DC offset went to the rails, but they are "sure" all the capacitors are in there correctly, so what else might be wrong?

    THANKS, Bob, for maintaining this forum as a place where the participants have both feet on the ground, and their heads screwed on straight.  And thanks to all those who post here and make it an informative and fun place.  Hardly a day passes when I don't learn something here.

    Now, where do I get that organically-treated rebar???

    audiobill

    Posts : 270
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    Location : Philadelphia

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by audiobill on Mon May 26, 2014 9:13 am

    I'm auditioning sledge hammers today- they realign the molecules in the rebar in different ways depending on the weight and strike force........

    wildiowa

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    Join date : 2012-03-19

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by wildiowa on Mon May 26, 2014 9:19 am

    I would just be very, very wary of any rebar made in China...open it up and see if it's legit.

    deepee99

    Posts : 1337
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 11:23 am

    wildiowa wrote:I would just be very, very wary of any rebar made in China...open it up and see if it's legit.

    I would also avoid GMO rebar made by Monsanto. It could cause you treble down the road.


    Last edited by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : diction)

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    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 11:33 am

    deepee99 wrote:I'm not an electrician, but I play one on TV.
    Let me anticipate your question with an answer. Dedicate a 20-amp circuit-breaker and wiring to the outlet you're going to use; and if you've got the resources (i.e. 10 feet of rebar and some heavy wire and a big sledge hammer), dedicate a separate ground for it.  Install a MANUAL reset ground-fault interrupter between the wall and the amp(s).
    But what do I know? I majored in English lit with minors in math and Russian.
    Best seek professional help. Smile

    well close.
    Here's my problem.
    I just converted our storage shed into a man cave, this is where I will build my electronic gadgets etc..
    So, as a temp measure, I am running a 20A circuit from the house, via a 20A extension cord to the shed. I have 5 outlets in the shed as well as two sets of double fluorescent light fittings, 68W per set.
    Now, the house outlet is a GFCI outlet, and to do the right thing, I also have installed one in the shed, from which branch out all the other outlets, as well, I tapped into the same circuit for the lights.
    The outlets all work fine, but as soon as I switch on the lights, the GFCI at the house trips, not the one in the shed. I checked all my wiring, no problems there. All the Live and Neutrals as well as Ground are correct. The metal light fittings are also grounded.
    For the life of me, I cannot figure out why the house GFCI trips every time I turn on the fluoro lights!?!
    Any thoughts??, thanks!

    audiobill

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    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by audiobill on Mon May 26, 2014 11:42 am

    Have you tried warm flourescents to avoid cold turn-on shock?

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 11:47 am

    audiobill wrote:Have you tried warm flourescents to avoid cold turn-on shock?

    you wanna elaborate on that?...do I have to microwave my fluoros first??  What a Face 

    deepee99

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    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 12:13 pm

    Montana,
    This thread might shed some "light" on the subject . . .
    http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/357771-gfi-tripping-fluorescent-lights.html#b

    and another:
    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111217135653AAHsq0A

    Seems your problem is no uncommon.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 12:32 pm

    deepee99 wrote:Montana,
    This thread might shed some "light" on the subject . . .
    http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-ac-dc/357771-gfi-tripping-fluorescent-lights.html#b

    and another:
    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111217135653AAHsq0A

    Seems your problem is no uncommon.

    thanks deepee99. Even though I did mention in my first post that I did not understand why it is tripping the GFCI, I did suspect that due to the nature of fluoro lights and their ballasts, the GFCI is too sensitive.
    Well I guess I just have to run a separate non GFCI protected line just for the lights....bummer!!......more effen work!!  affraid....oooooor....just go with old fashioned incandescence lights!!

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 2:34 pm

    problem solved.
    Since I already have a GFCI in the shed, I replaced the house GFCI with a standard unit....hey presto!

    tubes4hifi
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    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by tubes4hifi on Mon May 26, 2014 4:03 pm

    Montana, as soon as you even mentioned the words "florescent" I went into shock. Tear those things out!!
    They kill audio!! I guess you solved your initial problem with the GFCI wiring, or whatever,
    but don't anyone anywhere EVER combine florescent lighting with hi-fi gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I've still got a few 60w incandescent lamps available if anyone is desparate (didn't you all buy a hundred of them before the were outlawed?)
    Still expensive, and I haven't bought any yet, but LEDs lamps are fine . . . .

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 4:07 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:Montana, as soon as you even mentioned the words "florescent" I went into shock.   Tear those things out!!
    They kill audio!!    I guess you solved your initial problem with the GFCI wiring, or whatever,
    but don't anyone anywhere EVER combine florescent lighting with hi-fi gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I've still got a few 60w incandescent lamps available if anyone is desparate (didn't you all buy a hundred of them before the were outlawed?)
    Still expensive, and I haven't bought any yet, but LEDs lamps are fine . . . .

    kill audio?...you mean interference?....thats the setup I had in the garage where up until now I've been assembling the amps etc.

    deepee99

    Posts : 1337
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Ran into an actual electrician today who doesn't play one on TV

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 4:46 pm

    Montana,
    Here were his observations, 30 years in the business.
    Firstly, the GFCI closest to your 200-amp panel always fails first, not the one downstream in your shop. This was news to me. So you've still got a problem.
    I mentioned you were using a 20-foot drop cord to your shop box. Most drop cords of that length are 14 gauge.
    He said if you're using anything lighter than 10-gauge wire that's probably where the issue is. Fluorescents (or the ballasts) take a helluva surge when firing up, and that would trigger the GFCI in your house, not in the shop.
    In essence, his suggestion was, beef up the wiring between the house and the shop and reinstall the GFCI you've removed in the house.
    This advice was purchased for the price of a beer, so if it works you owe me $1.75. But it makes sense.

    tubes4hifi
    Admin

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    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by tubes4hifi on Mon May 26, 2014 4:53 pm

    ever heard florescent lights buzz? Well, if you get one near a preamp, you'll hear it for sure, amplified through your speakers!
    for all you "survivalist's" out there, think low grade EMP. (well yes, EMI and EFI and RFI, but yes, I did mean EMP)

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 4:57 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:ever heard florescent lights buzz?   Well, if you get one near a preamp, you'll hear it for sure, amplified through your speakers!
    for all you "survivalist's" out there, think low grade EMP.  (well yes, EMI and EFI and RFI, but yes, I did mean EMP)

    ah OK, good advise for when I check for noise & hum, thank you!
    I will turn the fluoro's off and use my old fashioned bulb bench light when I do those checks!

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 4:57 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:ever heard florescent lights buzz?   Well, if you get one near a preamp, you'll hear it for sure, amplified through your speakers!
    for all you "survivalist's" out there, think low grade EMP.  (well yes, EMI and EFI and RFI, but yes, I did mean EMP)

    you mean like nuke bomb EMP....cooooooool!!!!! affraid 

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 5:01 pm

    deepee99 wrote:Montana,
    Here were his observations, 30 years in the business.
    Firstly, the GFCI closest to your 200-amp panel always fails first, not the one downstream in your shop. This was news to me. So you've still got a problem.
    I mentioned you were using a 20-foot drop cord to your shop box. Most drop cords of that length are 14 gauge.
    He said if you're using anything lighter than 10-gauge wire that's probably where the issue is. Fluorescents (or the ballasts) take a helluva surge when firing up, and that would trigger the GFCI in your house, not in the shop.
    In essence, his suggestion was, beef up the wiring between the house and the shop and reinstall the GFCI you've removed in the house.
    This advice was purchased for the price of a beer, so if it works you owe me $1.75. But it makes sense.

    good advise, thank you, and I agree.
    The temp cord I am using is 12/3 gauge, so a little heavier, rated at 15A.
    The wiring inside the shed is 10 gauge from memory, rated at 20A, was a real dog to wire up the outlets with those stiff wires!!!
    I will dig a small trench and run a 20A cable from the shed to the 200-amp panel and hard wire it in with its own circuit braker, but this will take a few weeks.
    So for now, this temp setup will be OK...I hope!!..... bounce 

    deepee99

    Posts : 1337
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 5:13 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:ever heard florescent lights buzz?   Well, if you get one near a preamp, you'll hear it for sure, amplified through your speakers!
    for all you "survivalist's" out there, think low grade EMP.  (well yes, EMI and EFI and RFI, but yes, I did mean EMP)

    Yeah, fluorescents are murder on audio, whether s/s or tubes. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. You're better off with a 60-watt Edison bulb, especially now that they're illegal.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Guest on Mon May 26, 2014 5:29 pm

    deepee99 wrote:
    tubes4hifi wrote:ever heard florescent lights buzz?   Well, if you get one near a preamp, you'll hear it for sure, amplified through your speakers!
    for all you "survivalist's" out there, think low grade EMP.  (well yes, EMI and EFI and RFI, but yes, I did mean EMP)

    Yeah, fluorescents are murder on audio, whether s/s or tubes. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. You're better off with a 60-watt Edison bulb, especially now that they're illegal.


    but but but.......aaaaawwwwwwwwww............ Wink 

    deepee99

    Posts : 1337
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 26, 2014 5:32 pm

    MontanaWay wrote:
    deepee99 wrote:
    tubes4hifi wrote:ever heard florescent lights buzz?   Well, if you get one near a preamp, you'll hear it for sure, amplified through your speakers!
    for all you "survivalist's" out there, think low grade EMP.  (well yes, EMI and EFI and RFI, but yes, I did mean EMP)

    Yeah, fluorescents are murder on audio, whether s/s or tubes. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. You're better off with a 60-watt Edison bulb, especially now that they're illegal.


    but but but.......aaaaawwwwwwwwww............ Wink 

    If you're listening to your music on a breaker that's not connected to any fluorescent lights, you're OK. If it's just shop-lighting you're using the fluorescents for, you're fine.

    Tom

    Posts : 166
    Join date : 2011-04-04

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by Tom on Mon May 26, 2014 9:26 pm

    FWIW - rebar, audio grade or just regular concrete reinforcement, makes a poor choice for ground rod.

    I was helping a friend do some work recently and pulled on his house ground. It was rebar and rusted off about 6" below the ground level; essentially no ground at all.

    Buy the real stuff, copper or copper clad, from the hardware store.
    And cryogenically treat it of course.
    It will be more compatible with the new upgraded cryo-treated Wattgates that way...
     
    tongue 


    j4570

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    Join date : 2010-08-30

    Re: electrical wiring (House) question

    Post by j4570 on Mon May 26, 2014 9:43 pm

    If I were going to all the trouble to dig a trench out to my shed, particularly if I was digging deep enough to meet code (and these days you will get caught when you go to sell usually), I would certainly run something more that 1 20A 120V circuit, or at least use conduit so I could pull more later. I would consider running something a little larger, maybe even large enough for a 30A 240V subpanel out there (or more if you think you want electric heat?). Of course, you can get into pulling permits, knowing what the heck you are doing, and lot of other stuff, but it might be worth it to do it right.

    I had a friend that did exactly what you did, and the worst thing was when he popped the breaker, the lights would go out an then he had to go back to the house to reset the breaker. It's also a safety concern, if you are using any kind of tool (think circular saw) and the lights go out, you are now in the dark with a fast spinning blade.

    If you aren't up to running a subpanel (I know it gets involved and people don't like to do it or spend the money), consider two circuits from the house panel, one for lights, and one for shop use. Makes sure they are grounded properly. The other thing is lay PVC conduit (something fairly big like 1 1/2 or 2") and you can pull larger wire later if you decide to upgrade. PVC is fairly cheap and should meet local code. If you are only 20-30 feet away, shouldn't be more than $50 to put it in PVC conduit all the way, giving your a huge advantage later. It's also protects people when digging from shock/electrocution.

    Of course, I'll give the disclaimer that it's best to consult a licensed electrician in your area, but please give some thought to having only one circuit and using conduit.

    Jason


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