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    interesting Weber Copper Top issue

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    MontanaWay

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    interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by MontanaWay on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:06 pm

    one of the amps I built failed and was sent back to me.
    Turns out, the Weber Copper Top rectifier, one of the wires going into one of the tube base pins was loose. Looking at it closely, the original solder joint looked dry, so I guess over time and heat, it let go.
    When my client described the problem, I knew then that the amp had lost B+.
    It could have been a simple rectifier replacement, but there was another possibility that could have caused the loss of B+, so we decided it was best to send the unit back to me.
    The important thing is that the fault was found and it is up and running again.
    So just a general heads up on the Weber Copper Top. I also noticed that it is in fact using 1N4007's and a beefed up thermistor, so Weber must have 'upgraded' the components after some failures of those components.

    sKiZo

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by sKiZo on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:33 pm

    Copper Top? Didna know these suckers ran on batteries!  clown



    Which copper cap? What amp?

    Reason I ask is it's common to just go with the WZ68 instead of WZ34 that's recommended as a 5AR4 replacement ... that's what I went with. Same price and double the current capabilities, so seemed a no brainer. Also seemed especially good driving a quad of KT120's.

    Thanx for the reminder though. Was just planning a listening session and have been meaning to drag the copper cap out of storage. Relegated that to backup duty when I found a sweet little Mullard GZ37 ...

    MontanaWay

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by MontanaWay on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:46 pm

    Oh yeah....WZ68, amp is a ST120 running KT120's, not that it makes much of a difference as to which amp

    Dogstar

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by Dogstar on Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:30 pm

    Thanks to your suggestions I ordered a Weber for my ST-120.

    mazeeff

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by mazeeff on Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:44 am

    Given, the multiple issues with the weber rectifiers, I question whether it makes since to just use a couple of 1N4007's and thermistor (or inrush current limiter) if needed. I have seen the attention to detail on your amps, and that includes soldering. Why use a device that overheats, and has poor soldering? By mounting the components inside the chassis, you also eliminate the tube socket connection as well, which should improve reliability. I understand that the rectifier tube or the weber looks neat, but why compromise on this critical part of the amps circuit? With your ingenuity, you should be able to figure out how to mount a vertical LED VU meter, on a tube socket, in place of the Weber!

    Mike

    Bob Latino
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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by Bob Latino on Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:27 am

    mazeeff wrote:Given, the multiple issues with the weber rectifiers, I question whether it makes since to just use a couple of 1N4007's and thermistor (or inrush current limiter) if needed. I have seen the attention to detail on your amps, and that includes soldering. Why use a device that overheats, and has poor soldering? By mounting the components inside the chassis, you also eliminate the tube socket connection as well, which should improve reliability. I understand that the rectifier tube or the weber looks neat, but why compromise on this critical part of the amps circuit? With your ingenuity, you should be able to figure out how to mount a vertical LED VU meter, on a tube socket, in place of the Weber!

    Mike

    The Weber Copper Caps are very reliable - BUT - no matter how well they make them - one is going to fail now and then. Many times the failure of the Weber is related to an output tube failure that created a dead short. When the Weber trys to send current into partial short or a dead short - it can fail. I have had the same two Weber WZ68's in my VTA M-125 amps for about 3 1/2 years with no issues.

    I had also heard the same thing that Montana Way mentioned .. That Weber had recently upgraded some of the diodes, thermistors etc. inside the copper cap.

    As to your comment about hard wiring diodes inside the amp for rectification. Using the plug in method of inserting the Weber WZ68 directly into the rectifier tube socket also allows you to use a tube rectifier if you want.

    Bob

    MontanaWay

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by MontanaWay on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:03 am

    Knowing now that Weber are using upgraded components in their rectifiers I will keep using them on my version of the ST70 & 120, I am however considering using two 5AR4's in my version of the M124's power supply.
    As Bob has mentioned, components do fail, thats just the nature of things, time will tell I guess.

    MontanaWay

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by MontanaWay on Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:31 am

    mazeeff wrote:Given, the multiple issues with the weber rectifiers, I question whether it makes since to just use a couple of 1N4007's and thermistor (or inrush current limiter) if needed. I have seen the attention to detail on your amps, and that includes soldering. Why use a device that overheats, and has poor soldering? By mounting the components inside the chassis, you also eliminate the tube socket connection as well, which should improve reliability. I understand that the rectifier tube or the weber looks neat, but why compromise on this critical part of the amps circuit? With your ingenuity, you should be able to figure out how to mount a vertical LED VU meter, on a tube socket, in place of the Weber!

    Mike

    I am trying to stay away from 'modern' additions to my designs, people like the 'steam punk' look of my amps, so a LED VU meter would not really fit into that formula.
    As I've mentioned in my earlier reply, Weber have upgraded the components they use, so I will stick with them, for now, but will probably go the twin tube rectifier on my mono blocks.

    deepee99

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:21 pm

    Sounds like Weber have adopted one of tmadden's mods; they should put some cooling holes in them, too.
    As mentioned elsewhere on this board, my problems with the Webers went away when I changed speaks. I had been running big Maggies and Heils in parallel, probably nominally a 2 ohm load, not very bright on my part, going through Webers about once a month. The new speaker load is nominal 6 ohms, running off the 4 ohm tap, haven't melted anything since.

    sKiZo

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by sKiZo on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm

    Cooling holes? Why half step??



    I remember seeing some vaned tube sleeves somewhere that's supposed to add a whole bunch of surface area for cooling ... Just slip them on. Betcha you could keep a copper cap a couple degrees cooler just removing the label for that matter. I've got the vent holes in the chassis top on my ST120 and assUme the chimney effect helps a lot also.

    deepee99

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:08 pm

    sKiZo wrote:Cooling holes? Why half step??



    I remember seeing some vaned tube sleeves somewhere that's supposed to add a whole bunch of surface area for cooling ... Just slip them on. Betcha you could keep a copper cap a couple degrees cooler just removing the label for that matter. I've got the vent holes in the chassis top on my ST120 and assUme the chimney effect helps a lot also.

    Nice concept, but wouldn't a heat pump be simpler? Razz

    MarcVBelgium

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    Weber Copper Top Issue

    Post by MarcVBelgium on Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:10 pm

    sKiZo wrote:Cooling holes? Why half step??


    I remember seeing some vaned tube sleeves somewhere that's supposed to add a whole bunch of surface area for cooling ... Just slip them on. Betcha you could keep a copper cap a couple degrees cooler just removing the label for that matter. I've got the vent holes in the chassis top on my ST120 and assUme the chimney effect helps a lot also.


    Maybe the tubes sleeves mentioned are those by E.A.T. (the same people making those EAT Tubes @ 500$ each)

    Here's a link : http://www.europeanaudioteam.com/en/eat-cool-damper-000012.html


    If they have one that effectively fits a Weber, it might help...... doesn't look so "sexy" however.....

    Marc

    sKiZo

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by sKiZo on Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:17 pm

    Similar, but seems to me the ones I was looking at were spring adjustable. The EATs seem to be more sized for drivers.

    How about just stacking socket savers to get the rectifier high and proud?



    (shade optional)





    tubes4hifi
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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by tubes4hifi on Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:59 am

    since sKiZo is offering advice, may as well use CPU coolers on the Webers, they are small and some of them are liquid cooled ( COOL )!

    MontanaWay

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by MontanaWay on Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:05 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:since sKiZo is offering advice, may as well use CPU coolers on the Webers, they are small and some of them are liquid cooled  ( COOL )!

    oh my!

    deepee99

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:11 pm

    Hope the lamp shade is made out of asbestos.

    baddog1946

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by baddog1946 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:20 pm


    I had the same type of problem a year or so ago. I re-built two of my Weber WZ68's and used IN 5408 3W 1000V diodes to replace the IN4007 diodes it came with. I also used a higher capacity thermistor but I can't remeber the spec on that right now.
    At the time I felt the problem may have been because the power here is so bad. When I had the problems I also had a burnt out a bias resistor so there may be a connection there as well.
    Mine burnt one of the big wire wound resistors once and a diode once I'm not 100% sure what would cause a fairly robust component to burn up like that but since I re-built them with bigger diodes they have survived a lot of power anomalies and at least 2000 hours of duty.They seem bullet proof now.I am curious to know what thermistor Weber has chosen to upgrade if anyone has that data on hand.

    sKiZo

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by sKiZo on Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:28 pm

    You mentioned power problems ... if it's just high or low, you can get around that easily enough. It's the instaneous blips that can fry a lot of components. Tube amps especially need to be able to bleed down reserve when shut down before restarting.

    I still think a NON-LATCHING gfci adapter is one of the best (no) bang for the buck purchases you can make for every tube system. $20 isn't much for a bit more piece of mind.



    TRC 90033 Shockshield White Portable GFCI Plug with Surge Protection

    Forget the gfci part ... it's the non-latching that's important here. A power blip won't trip a standard breaker - these need to be manually reset even after a momentary power failure. I've had a few of those here since installing the thing. I'll let the amp sit a couple minutes after a blip trip ...

    baddog1946

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by baddog1946 on Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:44 pm

    I have had one of those for a couple of years. They work well. I put it on the end of the power cord on my amp and have it in a handy spot so I don't have to dig in back of my rack to reset it.

    Dave_in_Va

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by Dave_in_Va on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:31 am

    After reading Skizo's original post on these I bought two. They work perfectly. Thanks!

    deepee99

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    Re: interesting Weber Copper Top issue

    Post by deepee99 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:38 pm

    The manual-reset GFCIs have saved my bacon more than once. They are not an accessory; they are a necessity.

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