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    One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

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    deepee99

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    One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:54 pm

    OK, sorry to be a jerk. But does one really wait for a part to burn in, or do we just get used to it? I invite flaming.

    Kentley

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by Kentley on Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:02 pm

    I'm convinced that a major part of burn-in is re-wiring the audio circuits of our big brains to accomodate new sensation. Seriously.

    Cubdriver

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by Cubdriver on Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:17 pm

    I can see some burn-in for brand new tubes, as the cathode emissive coatings settle in and become fully functional (there is actual scientific data, and explanations of the chemical changes that occur in some of my older tube books), and _possibly_ some change for electrolytics in the signal path as they reform if they've been sitting for extended periods, but as for things like resistors and non-electrolytic caps, semiconductors and especially cables, no, I don't buy it.  I have to agree with Kentley - it's all in the listener's head.

    I spend a lot of time rolling my eyes as I read some of the audio forums where people are carrying on about how their speaker cables burned in over time, and all of that.  Suppose for a moment that burn in really DOES exist - why, in audio, does it ALWAYS make things sound BETTER?!?  You'd have to think that at least SOME of the 'burn in' changes would be for the worse, no?

    -Pat


    Last edited by Cubdriver on Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add comma)

    sKiZo

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by sKiZo on Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:30 pm

    We have to condition ourselves to any change, some more than others. Think psychoacoustics ...

    I was just mentioning in another thread about how I'd refurbed what I had come to accept as perfectly good bass drivers in my speakers and proceeded to be blown away by the results. It's amazing what we get used to.

    Also a big factor in doing any kind of "room tuning", either via hard treatments or electronic eq. "Perfect" flat can sound thin until you get used to it, and even then benefits greatly from a well designed room curve. Once you've done that, there's no real reason to not like what you hear, but that's often not the case. You have to adjust and grow into the new sound.

    Good news is, it takes a lot less time to "burn in" your ears that it would for maybe some shiny new PIO caps ...



    j beede

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by j beede on Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:18 pm

    According to Helmholz and Stratton it takes about 5 days for your brain to "re-calibrate" -- what they call perceptual adaptation. I find their experiments to be compelling and consistent with my own experiences.

    I have never heard anyone say that the sound of their gear sounded great when it was new but worsened after breaking in. Not once. How often have you read reviews stating that (ostensibly) obviously used gear needed time to break in after receipt and setup? Sounds like perceptual adaptation to me.

    sKiZo

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by sKiZo on Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:08 am

    It may take me a few days, but I'm sure I'll eventually agree with that wholeheartedly ... geek

    TN Allen

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by TN Allen on Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:55 am

    Perhaps synapses and neural pathways need "burn-in" time too?

    Tom

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by Tom on Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:30 am

    with acoustic guitars they talk about the wood in the guitar "opening up" as it's played over the years,
    even sell a device, "Tonerite", to vibrate the guitar while you're not around to hurry the process
    similar to playing pink noise on speakers and burning in new components(?)
    who knows, it's all just (subjective) fun
    enjoy
    Smile
    (anybody want to buy a used wattgate? well burned in!)

    wildiowa

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by wildiowa on Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:54 am

    I tend to view this burn-in issue, especially in the esoteric items like cables, switches chassis and the like, the same as my weight. Any changes happen so slowly and subtly that they are almost imperceptible...that is, until I look in a mirror and I am big and fat. I suppose items like tubes and caps would undergo some physical and electronic changes as they are fired up and "consumed" so to speak. I am just not that good at picking up such small and subtle changes so the whole burn-in thing for me is a moot point. I am just happy when my listening session ends without fireworks or blown fuses.

    Kentley

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by Kentley on Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:04 am

    TN Allen wrote:Perhaps synapses and neural pathways need "burn-in" time too?
    As well as "burn-out" time. But that's much easier and a great deal more fun. geek

    deepee99

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:07 am

    sKiZo wrote:We have to condition ourselves to any change, some more than others. Think psychoacoustics ...

    I was just mentioning in another thread about how I'd refurbed what I had come to accept as perfectly good bass drivers in my speakers and proceeded to be blown away by the results. It's amazing what we get used to.

    Also a big factor in doing any kind of "room tuning", either via hard treatments or electronic eq. "Perfect" flat can sound thin until you get used to it, and even then benefits greatly from a well designed room curve. Once you've done that, there's no real reason to not like what you hear, but that's often not the case. You have to adjust and grow into the new sound.

    Good news is, it takes a lot less time to "burn in" your ears that it would for maybe some shiny new PIO caps ...


    Think psychoacoustics? I thought this board was populated by acoustic psychos . . .

    zx

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by zx on Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:04 pm

    Bob an others here in this post... was just saying Russian K40-Y PIO .....sounded better after You burn in.....wate... after thay burn in...... I gess you guys are just makin it up as you go a long  .,..sounds about right...hehe
    I well say .....after owning ESL speakers for years......I have a pr Acoustats here well run in....30years...as most well know a ESL panel is just a big capacitor.....it still takes about 5 days for the 5kv bias too charge up fully......to sound there best......anyone can hear this...................just saying




    thank for the site Bob.................................

    deepee99

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:13 pm

    zx wrote:Bob an others here in this post... was just saying Russian K40-Y PIO .....sounded better after You burn in.....wate... after thay burn in...... I gess you guys are just makin it up as you go a long  .,..sounds about right...hehe
    I well say .....after owning ESL speakers for years......I have a pr Acoustats here well run in....30years...as most well know a ESL panel is just a big capacitor.....it still takes about 5 days for the 5kv bias too charge up fully......to sound there best......anyone can hear this...................just saying




    thank for the site Bob.................................

    The Russian PIO caps definitely need burning in, just to get the PCBs burned off and out the windows. And a new woofer or sub-woofer should be run hard for a few days to flex its muscles, get the wrinkles straightened out so to speak.
    But as to inter-connects, speaker cabling, you're pushing electrons down a pipe. Gimme a break.

    zx

    Posts : 194
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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by zx on Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:48 pm

    So like I said............we just makeup what  we wont.....I see....Wow ...well other do this all the time
    I gess if some were to say wire  .....like the caps are woffers.... need run in time to sound there best...thay be right also..........
    I gess your right.......is this new to you....jerk your just being...hehe
    sounds like just one mans o-pine...............justsaying



    thanks for the site Bob................................

    corndog71

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by corndog71 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:06 pm

    I think everything in the electrical path be it signal or power supply can affect the overall sound. It may be a small amount and maybe many if not most would say insignificant, but it's there. And it's cumulative. A whole lot of wide tolerance and compromise = crappy sound. Tightly matched tolerances and carefully chosen parts = music!

    Kentley

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by Kentley on Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:08 pm

    corndog71 wrote:I think everything in the electrical path be it signal or power supply can affect the overall sound.  It may be a small amount and maybe many if not most would say insignificant, but it's there.  And it's cumulative.  A whole lot of wide tolerance and compromise = crappy sound.  Tightly matched tolerances and carefully chosen parts = music!
    AMEN!

    deepee99

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by deepee99 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:39 am

    Corndog and Kentley,
    I couldn't agree more. Electronic component quality (matched with design quality) gets everything out of the music's way to your ears. But do cables and interconnects really need to "burn in"?

    corndog71

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by corndog71 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:53 pm

    deepee99 wrote:Corndog and Kentley,
    I couldn't agree more. Electronic component quality (matched with design quality) gets everything out of the music's way to your ears. But do cables and interconnects really need to "burn in"?

    A cap isn't really much more complex than an insulated wire and can make a difference.  Similarly, the LCR as well as geometry of a given cable can vary greatly and affect the signal.  

    Personally, I haven't heard a cable change over time.  I've tried going back to cheap zip cord but over time it just never stops sounding like crap. Evil or Very Mad


    Last edited by corndog71 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

    sKiZo

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by sKiZo on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:14 pm

    deepee99 wrote: ... do cables and interconnects really need to "burn in"?

    ... At the higher stages of energy continuation, one will find the audio signals are now being governed by the movement of the cable's internal energy and synergy ...


    Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....



    I've seen some amazing claims as to sonic improvements possible with uber audiophallic speaker cables, and take those with a grain of salt. It's not ALL snake oil though. I wired my house with good quality "zero oxygen" triple shielded w/drain cable. Seemed reasonable at the time. Big improvement over the original zipcord tucked around the baseboards. Bit expensive, but dragging cable through walls is something you only want to do once. I also have some higher end cables in the main room, again mostly for RF rejection as the longer lengths can pick up a bunch of external interference. I did upgrade all the connections to good gold bananas with a drop of DeOxit Gold ... those spring clips you find on a lot of equipment are pure shite ...

    As far as interconnects go, I'm real happy with middle roaders from Mogami. I'd go higher end on those, but with something like 42 cables in the system, $10 a pop on average is still quite an investment. Those also get the DeOxit Gold treatment.

    I've also considered raising the cables off the floor with insulated blocks as I've got carpet and a lot of static in the winter. Not that I'm gonna pay the ridiculous prices I see on some of that stuff ... Carved from unicorn horn and sprinkled with fairy dust under the full moon of Asgard if one is to believe all the hype. Easy enough to make my own out of scraps 'n odds 'n ends ...

    Cubdriver

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by Cubdriver on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:26 pm

    I can see different types of cables having a bit of an affect on the sound, due to their differing capacitance and inductance characteristics, but I fail to see how any of these might change over time.

    It also seems that people try to apply actual electrical phenomena that have no influence at audio frequencies to audio. I've heard talk of transmission line effects, and did the calculation one day. If I remember correctly, the wave length at 20kHz is around 9 miles in free air, so unless your cables are two miles long, transmission line effects are not going to be an issue.

    -Pat

    corndog71

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by corndog71 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:31 pm

    A few inches of wire shouldn't make a difference and yet I once rewired the speaker of a radio/alarm clock and it made a difference! drunken

    deepee99

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by deepee99 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:49 pm

    I haven't gone the oxygen-free route yet, but the fridge still seems to run OK provided we vaccuum out the owl-shite around the compressor once in awhile.
    Capacitance and resistance are a consideration, but can anybody honestly say that an 8-foot 10- or 12-gauge Blue Jeans speaker wire for a buck or two a foot delivers any less than an $8k run of Audioquest with the hearing-aid battery stuffed in and a 500-hour burn-in?
    Agreed that zip-cord is not the answer, although that's what Bob Carver used for the power cable on his Phase Linear amps and it's probably what we used as kids to wire our speaks. Yeah, you're running a 700-watt power amp off 18-gauge. Cabling is important but it ain't rocket science.


    j beede

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by j beede on Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:59 pm

    I have a hundred feet of AWG14-2 woven to and fro from the breaker box to the outlet behind my speakers. I'm told that if I insert a meter-long (39.37") $2000 IEC power cord between the hospital grade outlet and the IEC connector on the back of my amp to dramatically improve bass, sound stage depth, transparency, etc...

    Can I insert two such power cords in series to double the improvement? If I put them in parallel I get half the benefit?

    This is why I have converted all of my solid state amps to run with +/- 66V rails supplied via ten Diehard 900 CCA car batteries.

    corndog71

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by corndog71 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:22 pm

    j beede wrote:I have a hundred feet of AWG14-2 woven to and fro from the breaker box to the outlet behind my speakers. I'm told that if I insert a meter-long (39.37") $2000 IEC power cord between the hospital grade outlet and the IEC connector on the back of my amp to dramatically improve bass, sound stage depth, transparency, etc...

    Can I insert two such power cords in series to double the improvement? If I put them in parallel I get half the benefit?

    This is why I have converted all of my solid state amps to run with +/- 66V rails supplied via ten Diehard 900 CCA car batteries.

    I have been impressed by Shunyata's experiments which show that last few feet can make a difference. Not impressed by their prices but they gotta get paid somehow.

    zx

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    Re: One wonders about burn-in versus getting used-to

    Post by zx on Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:15 pm

    it been said here.......all things in the audio path.....can make a diff......now diff.... for the sake of diff
    ............where dose that leave u.................not where I wont too be...
    http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php





    thanks for the site Bob...........................

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