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    Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

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    Bob Latino
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Bob Latino on Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:06 pm

    Well I guess at least one company now has these overpriced ($2,999.99 USD !) amps now in stock ... See link below ..

    Dynaco ST-70X now for sale

    Bob
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    cci1492

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by cci1492 on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:29 am

    1) VTA ST70 $1235 + shipping WIRED with ALL tubes & EL34 output tubes.

    2) VTA ST-120 WIRED and TESTED amp with a complete tube set with Sovtek 6550 output tubes > $1600 + shipping.

    3) WIRED PAIR OF M-125 amps with ALL TUBES $2895 + shipping

    The proverbial no-brainer!
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    Bob Latino
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Bob Latino on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:23 am

    Through further research I found out that ANOTHER Canadian company Finale Audio also has a $2999 Dynaco type ST-70. Check it out at the link below ..

    Finale Audio ST-X

    This thing looks like it has a painted yellow Triode Electronics chassis and it does use "off the shelf" Hammond 1650G output transformers and a Hammond power transformer. The 1650G has no ultralinear screen taps so this amp must run in pentode mode and not ultralinear mode like all other Dynaco type amps. At tops > $700 - $800 for parts and at the most $150 for the tubes. Easily less than $1K for parts and tubes so they want $2K for putting it together. This one as well as Radial Engineering's version will never fly at those prices.

    Bob

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    Peter W.

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Peter W. on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:12 am

    This one as well as Radial Engineering's version will never fly at those prices.



    Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American Public.

    H.L. Mencken. (attr.)

    The actual quote - which I think is much better: “No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”

    Carve a block of wood and hand it so someone 'for pay' and you might get a buck. Polish it nicely, cut a groove on one side, call it a "Cable Catenary" and you might get $40 or more.

    http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/bamboo_cable_risers.htm
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    Bob Latino
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    Six things good and six things bad on the ST-70X (my opinion)

    Post by Bob Latino on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:58 pm





    What I like and what I don't like about the Dynaco ST-70X

    Like ..

    1. It looks nice .. nicely presented with or without the tube cage

    2. They are using Nichicon power caps

    3. They used a larger chassis that is 17 inches wide

    4. The LED biasing system is easier to use than using a separate multimeter and individual bias pots

    5. They used an IEC connector on the rear of the amp and these amps are switchable from 115 to 230 volts AC. Nice ..

    6. They changed their 2016 driver circuit from an EF86 input tube to a more common 12AU7 tube in 2017. An EF86 is a pentode/triode tube (like a 7199) that they never should have even considered in the first place.

    Don't like ..

    1. Yes - they made the chassis larger (about 4 inches wider than the original ST-70) but If you look at the layout, you could move the transformers and the output tubes further towards the sides of the chassis. Why didn't they do that ? Probably because they used a SINGLE printed circuit board for the driver, bias, power supply and output circuits. Spreading out the parts a little more would require a larger printed circuit board which would cost more money. I have never seen the inside of this amp? The one thing they have never done is post a photo of the inside wiring. What we have here is a 13 inch wide amp inside a 17 inch chassis.

    2. Why have two volume controls one for each channel ? Why not have a dual channel stepped attenuator and a balance control ? Also > At $3K pricing, this amp should have a remote. No remote on this amp ..

    3. A $3000 amp and you have to use a switch on the rear of the amp to switch between 4 and 8 ohms? Why not just use TWO red posts, one for 4 ohms and one for 8 ohms ?

    4. A 3 position roll off control on the front center of the amp ? Yes - you may get a tiny amount less distortion in the audible range if you restrict the amp from producing very high and very low frequencies (by placing an an extra capacitor directly in the signal path) but you won't really HEAR a difference.

    5. One of the things that people bitched about the original Dynaco ST-70 was that the power switch was on the rear of the amp and hard to get at. The ST-70X has the power switch on the rear. If you are going to create a "ST-70 new design", put the power switch on the front.

    6. The price > $3000 ? After they eventually figure out that the is amp is not going to sell at $3000, watch for the price to drop to $2500 and then again to $2000. At $2000 they will probably start selling.

    Bob


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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by audiobill on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:06 am

    Need I point out that for that price, you could get a pair of M125 monoblocks, wired, and have about FOUR times the power?
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    tubes4hifi
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by tubes4hifi on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:26 pm

    give me $1500 and I'll build you a new VTA70 with integrated preamp, fully remote control, and auto-bias on all the tubes, and even that bright yellow paint !!!
    Seriously, no joke . . .
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    erhard-audio

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by erhard-audio on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:06 pm

    meh!...an overpriced and underperforming (for its price) regurgitated ST70, trying to sell itself on the Dynaco name. Not to mention some of the negative points by Bob!
    Seriously.....$3000.00 ???????
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    pichacker

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by pichacker on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:33 am

    Rather too steep for me to buy.... But give them credit they have on the whole produced a good looking amplifier. I agree regarding the width and Bob's comments. Maybe the extra width was to allow for the cooling slots given the PCB construction.

    After all there was a leader in a certain country that said size does matter fairly recently. Smile

    In the other post the yellow chassis is not for me. Who wants a custard coloured amplifier??
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    Roy

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Roy on Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:36 am

    pichacker wrote:In the other post the yellow chassis is not for me. Who wants a custard coloured amplifier??
    Perhaps with some green added to balance it out ? =]


    https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vintage&m=231323
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    Bob Latino
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Bob Latino on Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:36 pm

    A little more info from what I posted above ... The thing that really gets me is that this amp was supposed to be launched in 2016 with an EF86 pentode/triode voltage amplifier tube and a 12AU7 phase splitter/inverter tube in 2016. See the link below and read the 2nd paragraph below the photo of the caged ST-70X where they say ..

    The 2016 ST-70X with EF86 input tubes

    "The original ST70’s signal tube [7199] is out of production and unavailable, as are all triode-pentode types - except for new old stock (NOS). However companies cannot do new volume manufacturing depending on NOS parts. Instead, the ST70 Series 3 uses a pair of EF86 Pentodes for the input and a 12AU7 dual triode to drive the output tubes. This combination has been tested through long experience in the audiophile community."

    The 2017 version of the amp says at the link below ...

    The 2017 version of the Dynaco ST-70X

    "The redesigned front end of the Series 3 amplifier replaces the obsolete 7199 pentode signal tubes from the original Stereo 70 with more commonly-used 12AU7 dual-triode tubes as part of a configuration that harkens back to the classic Williamson amplifier – this in itself has a long-storied history in the audiophile community. "

    Now they are using four 12AU7's - One 12AU7 for the voltage amplifier and one 12AU7 for the phase splitter/inverter for each channel. It took them a whole year listening to the amp to figure out what Roy and I and many other Dynaco DIYselfers already knew > Pentode/triode tubes are not linear at all drive levels and they just don't sound as good as all triode tubes like the 12AU7.

    Bob
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    Roy

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Roy on Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:30 am

    Are the triode pairs in a single 12AU7's not closely matched enough for the task of accurate phase inversion in their mind and  is this why they are using two - or is there another benefit I am missing?
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by peterh on Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:43 am

    Roy wrote:Are the triode pairs in a single 12AU7's not closely matched enough for the task of accurate phase inversion in their mind and  is this why they are using two - or is there another benefit I am missing?
    Any random choosen ecc82/12au7 ( or any tube) is unequal to any other. That is why
    "old timers" designed amps to compensate for tube performance. Feedback is one of the
    big helpers here, today CCS is another. Or just plain intelligent design. A concertina
    is inherently balanced, a paraphase or LTP is not. If an unbalanced design is choosen
    then adjustment pots must be designed, and so a manual procedure for trimming.

    Have a look at MkIII ( or ST70) if you like, designers know their trade.

    The alternative is to demand matching of tubes.

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    Peter W.

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Peter W. on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:50 am

    Roy wrote:Are the triode pairs in a single 12AU7's not closely matched enough for the task of accurate phase inversion in their mind and  is this why they are using two - or is there another benefit I am missing?

    OK... I will bite on this one.

    Consider the inherent difficulties of matching any given dual-element tube to any other given dual-element tube. Let's start with those in the 12A*7 family of dual-triodes.

    Category A:

    a) Match element-to-element within the tube. Then:
    b) Find another dual-triode that matches the first one.

    Category B:

    Just find two tubes that may not match internally - but 1A will match to 2A & 1B will match to 2B.

    Now, Category A: Figure one-in-5 tubes may match internally. Meaning it will take five groups of five (at least) to get a matched pair, or any 2 of 25 may yield a match. The other 23 *CANNOT BE MATCHED* as a Category A because they do not match internally.

    Category B:

    I would expect that matches are more readily made at this level, but still four times as difficult and time-consuming as a power-tube.

    Then there is the aging issue, and natural drift.

    Designing an amplifier that required matched small-signal tubes would be insane, and yield limited improvement, if any, in any case.
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by sKiZo on Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:34 pm

    Anyone actually bought one of these things yet? I was looking for a google pic of the bottom of the chassis to see if that was open enough to allow all those cute extra slots on the top to actually work. Nada. Zilch. If they're looking for a chimney effect to cool the components, cool air has got to come from somewhere, eh.

    PS - I was all ready to sue if the new production units looked anything like mine ... ;-}
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    Roy

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Roy on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:16 am

    Thnx Peterh and W. That got me to reading about some interesting things.
    I see one dutch reseller of tubes having  balanced versions of the 12au7 on sale for a few € more.


    Well   if nothing élse breaks this month, the next might see 45 pounds of puzzle heading our way =]

    But to not let this thread stray too much lol - yes, this st70 reboot has some interesting sides to it but   being most of the way to a decent mc275 mk VI in price, and over some other offerings like those from Cayin with more power and more features - I wish them the best but   it just does not scream  buy me  at me.. The presentation also to me looks more at home in a studio than in a livingroom.
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by peterh on Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:07 am

    Roy wrote:Thnx Peterh and W. That got me to reading about some interesting things.
    I see one dutch reseller of tubes having  balanced versions of the 12au7 on sale for a few € more.


    Well   if nothing élse breaks this month, the next might see 45 pounds of puzzle heading our way =]

    But to not let this thread stray too much lol - yes, this st70 reboot has some interesting sides to it but   being most of the way to a decent mc275 mk VI in price, and over some other offerings like those from Cayin with more power and more features - I wish them the best but   it just does not scream  buy me  at me.. The presentation also to me looks more at home in a studio than in a livingroom.
    You don't need matched ecc82 in the vta70/120 amp, it uses CCA and feeedback. Working tubes
    within spec is what you need.
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    Roy

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Roy on Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:27 am

    Oh yes I found that out when you remarked on those things in your previous comment I did some searching and found a nice page on the mkIII and others by someone who explained the circuits nicely.
    There are quite a few people out there hosting some very interesting ( and way out of my depth ) books on the subject I found -   The Morgan Jones one is on my reader now ( page 396 and onward on this subject ) though am still looking for the Audio Cyclopedia book - seems to go for prices approaching a set of nos 12au7's from some British WWII airfield on Amazon =S

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Johnny2Bad on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:51 pm

    I can't comment about the sonics of the Radial / Dynaco amp, but I do know Radial Engineering as a company quite well. They are far from a fly-by-night operation, having being in ;business for something like 50 years. Their history is in Pro Audio and their products are highly respected in that field; some of their units are considered "must have" in the Pro recording, live performance and installation spaces.

    They have been the Mogami distributor in Canada long before that line of cable was "discovered" by the audiophile crowd. They were the largest customer of Jensen Transformer (California) and when that company announced they would cease operation, they purchased the firm in a friendly transaction and injected (needed) cash into the operation, which as a result continues to manufacture that well respected transformer (line, 600ohm, moving coil cartridge, etc) line.

    I very much doubt they would not have secured the necessary rights from the legal trademark and IP owner to resurrect the Dynaco brand, and I expect any legal challenges will be dealt with appropriately over time. I am not suggesting they are intending to resurrect the original Dynaco products and service, just that they are likely to offer a quality product should one come into the market. I do know they have also purchased the rights to the Haffler trade name from the OP owner and that the new products under that brand are real and can be purchased from resellers.

    They are not a "high end audio" company; these lines are a new area of interest for them and I would expect it will take some time for them to develop a dealer network and to navigate the unique aspects of marketing in comparison to the music industry.

    None the less they are likely to have performed due diligence and are in my opinion serious about entering this area of audio and I expect them to show appropriate respect for the history of the company. I don not expect their resurrection of the Dynaco trade name to affect the existing classic Dynaco businesses negatively; it may even be a benefit by putting the brand into the public eye to a greater extent than in the recent past.

    In particular I think there will be a clear line of separation between any new Dynaco product and the classic components this site is concerned with. I don't see them as usurpers or someone who will cheapen the brand by milking the goodwill (unlike, say, the current owners of names like Bell & Howell, etc). I know these developments seem alarming to lovers of classic Dynaco products, but in my opinion I see no need for panic. As to the new amplifier they have announced, it is not really selling into the same market as the one this site's members are concerned with. Also I think it is worth mentioning that Radial manufactures all of it's products in North America (Vancouver BC or California).

    Oh, and yes, this is my first post. But I didn't join to comment on this topic, I came across it while perusing the site as a new member.

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by PeterCapo on Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:30 pm

    Johnny2Bad wrote:I can't comment about the sonics of the Radial / Dynaco amp, but I do know Radial Engineering as a company quite well...

    In what capacity?  Customer?  Business associate?  Something else?

    Just curious...

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Johnny2Bad on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:35 pm

    PeterCapo wrote:
    Johnny2Bad wrote:I can't comment about the sonics of the Radial / Dynaco amp, but I do know Radial Engineering as a company quite well...

    In what capacity?  Customer?  Business associate?  Something else?

    Just curious...

    Customer (wholesale Mogami, retail Radial product owner), experience (Pro Audio production, recording, installation, guitar player). Their Direct Boxes are a studio/stage standard. Virtually everyone who plays guitar, keyboards; people like Eric Clapton to Metallica use their stuff. Reputation is based on ruggedness, reliability, and sonics. The curious can seek out reviews in the Pro Audio press (Guitar Player, Sound on Sound magazines, etc). Virtually the only complaint people have is they cost more than the Chinese built competition (Behringer, etc). If you are a Professional in that area, and you want the best, it's what you buy.

    Put another way, they're the kind of company you would want to buy the brand, I'd take them even over someone like Harmon International, aside from possibly Harmon's ability to throw unlimited money at a project. Customer Service is solid and responsive. Before Marshall bought equity in Mogami they were the sole North American distributor. You literally cannot buy a CD or album or watch a TV production (all the networks, NFL Films, etc) that doesn't use Mogami cable somewhere in the chain.

    With regard to price, all I would say is members of this forum are well aware of their options, choice is a good thing, and if Dynaco were selling in 2017 dollars with a full retail distribution chain (where a BoM would be about 20% of retail), it would be more than $3K for a new ST-70.
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by PeterCapo on Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:27 am

    The point is well-taken, and I’d be willing to give the benefit of any doubt to the Radial Stereo 70, meaning I am sure it is a quality product. Fact still is, however, that Bob’s, Kevin’s and Frank’s Stereo 70s are about, what, half the price or less. I am skeptical that the Radial Stereo 70 would sound so much better as to justify the higher price, if it sounds "better" at all (again, I’m skeptical).

    Perhaps the new Radial Stereo 70 would appeal more to a non-DIY, "boutique" crowd who might neither be aware of nor understand the other choices. In any case, if people want to spend $3,000 on it, it’s their decision. For me, I can spend some money on this stuff, but I’m not Jed Clampett or Thurston Howell. I’d rather pocket the savings and use it on something else.

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Johnny2Bad on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:32 am

    PeterCapo wrote:The point is well-taken, and I’d be willing to give the benefit of any doubt to the Radial Stereo 70, meaning I am sure it is a quality product. Fact still is, however, that Bob’s, Kevin’s and Frank’s Stereo 70s are about, what, half the price or less. I am skeptical that the Radial Stereo 70 would sound so much better as to justify the higher price, if it sounds "better" at all (again, I’m skeptical).

    Perhaps the new Radial Stereo 70 would appeal more to a non-DIY, "boutique" crowd who might neither be aware of nor understand the other choices. In any case, if people want to spend $3,000 on it, it’s their decision. For me, I can spend some money on this stuff, but I’m not Jed Clampett or Thurston Howell. I’d rather pocket the savings and use it on something else.

    Yes, and I don't think it's necessary to remind members of this forum one more time what options there are for original ST-70 and other Dynaco product.

    It's an Apples-to-Oranges comparison in any case; the Radial product is a fully assembled retail packaged retail dealer network market amplifier. I fail to see any likelihood of direct competition.

    Finally, although it's extremely common, I never understand why people complain about prices for products they have no intention of buying. It is both preaching to the converted, which is always pointless and never changes outcomes, and speaking to an audience that doesn't exist, as those who would consider such a purchase aren't among those such comments are likely to reach. I do understand the sentiment, but the effort is wasted.
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    Roy

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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by Roy on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:22 am

    The heritage of the company behind this Dynaco reboot does clarify the styling to me - it definately looks like studio not livingroom gear. My google bubble has been inserting adds for this thing into some sites this past week ^^ They should get some of these things out to some reviewers asap though eh..
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    Re: Canadian company trying to "steal" the "Dynaco" trade name ?

    Post by PeterCapo on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:35 am

    Johnny2Bad wrote:
    PeterCapo wrote:The point is well-taken, and I’d be willing to give the benefit of any doubt to the Radial Stereo 70, meaning I am sure it is a quality product.  Fact still is, however, that Bob’s, Kevin’s and Frank’s Stereo 70s are about, what, half the price or less.  I am skeptical that the Radial Stereo 70 would sound so much better as to justify the higher price, if it sounds "better" at all (again, I’m skeptical).

    Perhaps the new Radial Stereo 70 would appeal more to a non-DIY, "boutique" crowd who might neither be aware of nor understand the other choices.  In any case, if people want to spend $3,000 on it, it’s their decision.  For me, I can spend some money on this stuff, but I’m not Jed Clampett or Thurston Howell.  I’d rather pocket the savings and use it on something else.

    Yes, and I don't think it's necessary to remind members of this forum one more time what options there are for original ST-70 and other Dynaco product.

    It's an Apples-to-Oranges comparison in any case; the Radial product is a fully assembled retail packaged retail dealer network market amplifier. I fail to see any likelihood of direct competition.

    Finally, although it's extremely common, I never understand why people complain about prices for products they have no intention of buying. It is both preaching to the converted, which is always pointless and never changes outcomes, and speaking to an audience that doesn't exist, as those who would consider such a purchase aren't among those such comments are likely to reach. I do understand the sentiment, but the effort is wasted.

    I must beg to differ.  As an open forum, anyone can share their personal views, even if similar views have already been expressed by others.  Having been around for a while in this and other forums, this seems to me neither uncommon nor inappropriate.

    And, at the risk of issuing another reminder, direct comparison [as you mention] with the Radial Stereo 70 is certainly appropriate because Bob’s, Kevin’s and Frank’s Stereo 70s are also available fully assembled with plenty of support available from them and from experienced attenders of forums, most of which are very happy customers.

    Finally, how can anyone reliably predict what anyone else may wish to purchase, or who might be in the audience?  My observation has been that there are regular attenders here, and in other forums, who are willing to consider adding to their stables.  Over time, it has also become clear enough to me that many others visit forums to look for advice from experience, and those with experience are willing to help.

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