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    Canadian company has acquired the "Dynaco" trade name ?

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    rjpjnk

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    Post by rjpjnk on Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:44 pm

    Deleted the pics.
    I thought it best to keep the focus on Bob and Roy's excellent products here. We can start an "Inside the new ST-70 thread" somewhere else.


    Last edited by rjpjnk on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    rjpjnk

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    Post by rjpjnk on Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:11 am

    I noticed there is a brand stamped on the tube sockets (Belton) so I looked them up online.
    The octal sockets used appear to be Model VT8-PTL-01 on this page. They seem to be a decent quality part. I can tell you the tubes insert and pull out with a nice feel and don't require excessive force or rocking, so that's good anyway.

    http://www.belton.co.kr/product/product.html?code=007
    peterh
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    Post by peterh on Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:38 am

    rjpjnk wrote:I noticed there is a brand stamped on the tube sockets (Belton) so I looked them up online.
    The octal sockets used appear to be Model VT8-PTL-01 on this page. They seem to be a decent quality part. I can tell you the tubes insert and pull out with a nice feel and don't require excessive force or rocking, so that's good anyway.

    http://www.belton.co.kr/product/product.html?code=007
    Again, the forces appied at tube insertion and removal should, in my opinion,
    be taken by the sockets themself, not by the leadless solder whos mechanical
    properties does not include physical ruggidness.
    This does not make the amp useless, it only makes MTBF less.
    cci1492
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    Post by cci1492 on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:34 am

    I wouldn't buy that.
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    rjpjnk

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    Post by rjpjnk on Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:47 am

    peterh wrote:
    rjpjnk wrote:I noticed there is a brand stamped on the tube sockets (Belton) so I looked them up online.
    The octal sockets used appear to be Model VT8-PTL-01 on this page. They seem to be a decent quality part. I can tell you the tubes insert and pull out with a nice feel and don't require excessive force or rocking, so that's good anyway.

    http://www.belton.co.kr/product/product.html?code=007
    Again, the forces appied at tube insertion and removal should, in my opinion,
    be taken by the sockets themself, not by the leadless solder whos mechanical
    properties does not include physical ruggidness.
    This does not make the amp useless, it only makes MTBF less.

    I agree. Using chassis mount sockets with wires would also be better for thermal reasons. Pretty dumb idea in my opinion to solder hot output tubes to the PC board.
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    mijohn

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    Post by mijohn on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:37 pm

    rjpjnk wrote:
    peterh wrote:
    rjpjnk wrote:I noticed there is a brand stamped on the tube sockets (Belton) so I looked them up online.
    The octal sockets used appear to be Model VT8-PTL-01 on this page. They seem to be a decent quality part. I can tell you the tubes insert and pull out with a nice feel and don't require excessive force or rocking, so that's good anyway.

    http://www.belton.co.kr/product/product.html?code=007
    Again, the forces appied at tube insertion and removal should, in my opinion,
    be taken by the sockets themself, not by the leadless solder whos mechanical
    properties does not include physical ruggidness.
    This does not make the amp useless, it only makes MTBF less.

    I agree. Using chassis mount sockets with wires would also be better for thermal reasons. Pretty dumb idea in my opinion to solder hot output tubes to the PC board.
    I don't think Audio Research would agree with you. They mount their tubes on the PCB in many of their power amps and they produce some of the best tube amps in the world.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier
    PeterCapo
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    Post by PeterCapo on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:59 pm

    At $2,999 the Series 3 seems like a boondoggle. But, at $1,499 it seems like a reasonable enough choice - provided you don't run into problems. What's the story with Series 3 service and support, anyway?  Are they providing the kind of documentation the original came with?  Will it even be available at $1,499 on at least some kind of recurring basis? Still seems kind of pointless with the dynakitparts, Latino, Triode USA and Van Alstine available. But, if they want to toss their hat in the ring and don't stir up any problems for the others, then what the heck.
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    rjpjnk

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    Post by rjpjnk on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:16 pm

    mijohn wrote:
    rjpjnk wrote:
    peterh wrote:
    rjpjnk wrote:I noticed there is a brand stamped on the tube sockets (Belton) so I looked them up online.
    The octal sockets used appear to be Model VT8-PTL-01 on this page. They seem to be a decent quality part. I can tell you the tubes insert and pull out with a nice feel and don't require excessive force or rocking, so that's good anyway.

    http://www.belton.co.kr/product/product.html?code=007
    Again, the forces appied at tube insertion and removal should, in my opinion,
    be taken by the sockets themself, not by the leadless solder whos mechanical
    properties does not include physical ruggidness.
    This does not make the amp useless, it only makes MTBF less.

    I agree. Using chassis mount sockets with wires would also be better for thermal reasons. Pretty dumb idea in my opinion to solder hot output tubes to the PC board.
    I don't think Audio Research would agree with you. They mount their tubes on the PCB in many of their power amps and they produce some of the best tube amps in the world.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier

    Wow, look at that. They look like the same kind of sockets, and sporting even bigger power tubes. I guess it is okay after all if done right. Thanks for this reference.
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    Post by corndog71 on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:58 pm

    mijohn wrote:
    I don't think Audio Research would agree with you. They mount their tubes on the PCB in many of their power amps and they produce some of the best tube amps in the world.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier

    I’ve heard from people who have dealt with them. Power tube sockets on pcb’s are a bad idea.
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    Post by mijohn on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:04 am

    corndog71 wrote:
    mijohn wrote:
    I don't think Audio Research would agree with you. They mount their tubes on the PCB in many of their power amps and they produce some of the best tube amps in the world.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier

    I’ve heard from people who have dealt with them.  Power tube sockets on pcb’s are a bad idea.
    Yes, I prefer hard wiring the amps I build, if a tube develops a short on a PCB it could cause quite a bit of damage to the board its mounted on. Although, I would have thought that if AR had received many unreliability reports related to PCB mounted tubes they would have stopped this practice by now.
    peterh
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    Post by peterh on Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:07 am

    mijohn wrote:
    corndog71 wrote:
    mijohn wrote:
    I don't think Audio Research would agree with you. They mount their tubes on the PCB in many of their power amps and they produce some of the best tube amps in the world.

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-reference-150-power-amplifier

    I’ve heard from people who have dealt with them.  Power tube sockets on pcb’s are a bad idea.
    Yes, I prefer hard wiring the amps I build, if a tube develops a short on a PCB it could cause quite a bit of damage to the board its mounted on. Although, I would have thought that if AR had received many unreliability reports related to PCB mounted tubes they would have stopped this practice by now.
    Reason for board-mounted sockets is : COST. Mounting sockets is labor intensive
    and when costs are cut less reliable solutions pops up.
    As for AR, yes they mount sockets on boards. In spite of cooling holes around
    tube sockets they still sometimes get problems with heat destruction and brittle boards.
    Tuberollers will confirm this, i have myself had a AR D75A and can confirm the weakness.

    Just say no to board-mounted sockets!
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    Post by mijohn on Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:36 am

    I agree with you entirely Peterh, but you would think that at a retail price of $13,000 in the case of the Reference 150, cutting production costs in this way wouldn't be necessary! Very Happy
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    Post by peterh on Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:00 am

    mijohn wrote:I agree with you entirely Peterh, but you would think that at a retail price of $13,000 in the case of the Reference 150, cutting production costs in this way wouldn't be necessary! :D

    bean-counters will always save expenses. And the price of an item has very little relation
    to the cost of manufacturing, but is set by surrounding competitors and market surge.

    To assure good products a balance between bean-counters and engineers is needed. Too
    much of either will put the success in danger. Add to that good marketers and you
    might have a successful product.
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    Post by mijohn on Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:57 am

    Those same forces that you describe are obviously involved in the ST-70 Series 3.
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    Post by audiobill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:20 am

    "bean-counters will always save expenses. And the price of an item has very little relation
    to the cost of manufacturing, but is set by surrounding competitors and market surge.

    To assure good products a balance between bean-counters and engineers is needed. Too
    much of either will put the success in danger. Add to that good marketers and you
    might have a successful product."

    And competitors have great power over pricing - too high, and few will buy your product. Why should a manufacturer key pricing to materials cost when there's more profit available?
    Bob Latino
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    Post by Bob Latino on Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:00 am

    Some readers may think that I am trying to knock a "competitor" when bringing up all this info on the Dynaco ST-70X. Not true .. The ST-70X is a WIRED amp. 90% of the amps that I sell are KIT amps. I don't compete with them at all. My gripe with them is their price of $2999 USD for a 35 watt per channel amp. It will never sell well at that price. Too much competition. Note that the USA made Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum is also $2999 and is a 100 watts per channel amp. See link below ..

    Rogue Cronus Magnum

    Ok - so what did Radial Engineering do when they started (temporarily) selling their $2999 amp at the $1499 "promotional" price (that they can't really make a profit on). They are trying to unload stock and they are trying to get some amps out into circulation. They are hoping that those in circulation now will get good reviews. At $2999, they won't sell well. What will happen.

    1. At some point they may put the remaining stock on "promotional sale" again, flush them out and stop production.

    OR

    2. They may do what I said earlier in another post > Start dropping the price gradually like $2999, $2499 $1999 etc. until they reach a point where the amps do start to sell ? Check the price at the link below from time to time and see if it does drop ?

    Dynaco ST-70X current price

    Bob
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    Post by mijohn on Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am

    Although most of us on this forum know that the VTA ST-70 is a superior amp in most respects and one can have fun building it and save money at the same time, for those people out there who are influenced by such things, there is one thing from a marketing point of view, going for the ST-70X
    That is, the review in The Absolute Sound and subsequent Product of The Year award will probably mean it will be included in the 2019 TAS Editors Choice Awards as well and $3000 won't look so bad in that company!
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    Post by rjpjnk on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:02 pm

    mijohn wrote:Although most of us on this forum know that the VTA ST-70 is a superior amp in most respects...

    mijohn,

    What is your basis for this statement?
    Do you mean compared to the ST-70 Series 3?

    I am not trying to defend or criticize either amp. Just collecting data as part of my personal evaluation process. I have both sitting right here in my living room and have been comparing them for a while now. I would not say either is clearly superior since each excels at different things. What has your experience been with these and how did you come to this conclusion?

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    Post by peterh on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:03 pm

    rjpjnk wrote:
    mijohn wrote:Although most of us on this forum know that the VTA ST-70 is a superior amp in most respects...

    mijohn,

    What is your basis for this statement?
    Do you mean compared to the ST-70 Series 3?

    I am not trying to defend or criticize either amp. Just collecting data as part of my personal evaluation process. I have both sitting right here in my living room and have been comparing them for a while now. I would not say either is clearly superior since each excels at different things. What has your experience been with these and how did you come to this conclusion?

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    Looking forward to an evaluation!
    Bob Latino
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    Post by Bob Latino on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:28 pm

    To rjpjnk > Rich - Your amp is about a year old and is probably well broken in. I did remember that you did not have cap upgrades with your amp. If you want to post here your thoughts on any comparison between the two amps, you are welcome to do so. Question > You probably did buy the ST-70X at their promotional $1499 price. Would you have purchased this amp if it was priced at $2999 ?

    Bob

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    Post by jsl1234 on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:39 pm

    audiobill wrote:"bean-counters will always save expenses. And the price of an item has very little relation
    to the cost of manufacturing, but is set by surrounding competitors and market surge.

    To assure good products a balance between bean-counters and engineers is needed. Too
    much of either will put the success in danger. Add to that good marketers and you
    might have a successful product."

    And competitors have great power over pricing - too high, and few will buy your product.  Why should a manufacturer key pricing to materials cost when there's more profit available?

    What audiobill said, i.e., balance is always key. I don't know why folks throw bean counters under the bus simply for doing their job--without them shareholders would never get their fair return and employees, including engineers, would never get paid.....
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    Post by rjpjnk on Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:14 pm

    Bob Latino wrote:To rjpjnk > Rich - Your amp is about a year old and is probably well broken in. I did remember that you did not have cap upgrades with your amp. If you want to post here your thoughts on any comparison between the two amps, you are welcome to do so. Question > You probably did buy the ST-70X at their promotional $1499 price. Would you have purchased this amp if it was priced at $2999 ?

    Bob


    Hi Bob, I added the Russian K40Y-9 PIO interstage capacitors later. Also upgraded the 4 big electrolytics on the board to 100uf if I recall correctly, and installed stepped attenuator and that really nice lucite cover you offer as well. Here is a picture from a several months back. I am so proud of how this amp turned out. It was a ton of fun to build and your instructions were perfectly clear. Thanks for this awesome kit!

    Yes, I bought the new ST-70 Series 3 while they were 1499. It kept tempting me for months at that bargain price and I knew one day it would disappear, maybe forever. I eventually caved and decided I had to try it. No, I would not have bought it at 2999.

    Thanks you for inviting my review comments here. One day I may put together a detailed comparison. For now I will just say that both amps sound excellent, and are actually much more similar than they are different sonically. The Series 3 has a little firmer bass (likely due to the SS rectification, increased capacitance, and lower resistance power supply), and a slightly fuller midrange presentation. To my ears, and with my speakers, I have a slight preference for the Series 3 at this point.

    One thing I did notice is I prefer the sound, (with either amp), using the JJ E34L tubes that came with the Series 3 rather than the reissued Mullards I had in the VTA. Unfortunately, I don't have 8 matching output tubes to equal the playing field so I have had to swap back and forth. Even with the tubes swapped I still notice the above mentioned differences in the sound between the amps, but to a lesser degree.

    One clear advantage of the VTA is price, and the experience of building your own amp is very rewarding and hard to put a value on. Also, the upgradability and online support for the DIY route makes for years of adventure. On the other hand, the new Dynaco has some serious good looks (again completely subjective I suppose).

    Here is my VTA with the PIOs in place. So pretty I hate to cover it up Smile

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    Post by PeterCapo on Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm

    JJ E34L is a really nice sounding tube...
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    Post by mijohn on Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:05 pm

    rjpjnk wrote:
    mijohn wrote:Although most of us on this forum know that the VTA ST-70 is a superior amp in most respects...

    mijohn,

    What is your basis for this statement?
    Do you mean compared to the ST-70 Series 3?

    I am not trying to defend or criticize either amp. Just collecting data as part of my personal evaluation process. I have both sitting right here in my living room and have been comparing them for a while now. I would not say either is clearly superior since each excels at different things. What has your experience been with these and how did you come to this conclusion?

    Maybe I was a bit glib in phrasing that sentence, I should have written "many or some of us on this forum..." I made the superiority comment based on the assumption  that most people on this forum are here because they are connoisseurs of the original Dynaco amplifiers or are looking to buy a classic VTA Dynaco amp. The original and VTA ST-70 are different amplifiers to the new Series 3 which has largely been redesigned, both the circuit and obviously the cosmetics. I think the VTA 70 is superior in it's hard wired construction to the Series 3 with it's  mainly PCB construction which, as discussed earlier in this thread, may cause reliability problems down the track.

    The Series 3 will appeal to consumers who are aware of the Dynaco name and pedigree, but want a modern styled amplifier. I like the use of LED's and no multimeter to adjust the bias, that will will appeal to consumers. Which amplifier has superior sound quality, the VTA ST-70 or Series 3, you rjpjnk, are in a good position to tell us.


    Last edited by mijohn on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammer corrections)
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    mijohn

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    Post by mijohn on Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:55 am

    rjpjnk, if Dick Olsher's conclusion to his review in TAS is anything to go by, you may well have got a bargain. On reading it, I concluded that the only thing the original ST-70 and the Series 3 have in common is that they share the same name! They probably appeal to different markets and with you having a foot in both, it will be interesting to read your impressions.

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