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    Breaking In (or Bad)

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    vtshopdog

    Posts : 96
    Join date : 2015-07-11
    Location : UT, USA

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by vtshopdog on Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:01 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:#1 component in a hi-fi system (besides your ears) is the ROOM the stereo is located in - put 10-20% of your budget in room treatment
    #2 component in a hi-fi system are the speakers - put 50% of your total budget here ($5K speakers for a $10K system)
    #3 component in a hi-fi system is the preamp and/or the source material (turntable, CD player, DAC)
    LAST component in a hi-fi system is the amplifier (and the cables, interconnects, speaker wires)
    IMHO
    when upgrading your system, FIX your room first!  Then get better speakers!  Then get a better preamp!   When it's all perfect, maybe a better amp and wiring.

    Sorry, can't resist  Very Happy :
    Roy - will you promise to write a note to my wife stating that if I do a $4k DIY makeover to our living/listening room that in accordance with above principles I can then justify a budget 5x that amount for gear?

    Seems like pretty solid math to me . . . .

    Dogstar

    Posts : 244
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:51 am

    tubes4hifi wrote:#1 component in a hi-fi system (besides your ears) is the ROOM the stereo is located in - put 10-20% of your budget in room treatment
    #2 component in a hi-fi system are the speakers - put 50% of your total budget here ($5K speakers for a $10K system)
    #3 component in a hi-fi system is the preamp and/or the source material (turntable, CD player, DAC)
    LAST component in a hi-fi system is the amplifier (and the cables, interconnects, speaker wires)
    IMHO
    when upgrading your system, FIX your room first!  Then get better speakers!  Then get a better preamp!   When it's all perfect, maybe a better amp and wiring.

    Based on those percentages I can spend $50,000 on the sound system I put in my bathroom.
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    tubes4hifi
    Admin

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by tubes4hifi on Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:17 pm

    DogStar,
    do you have a 500 sf bathroom? Or the more typical 15 sf bathroom (soundbooth) which could be mind blowing good for about $500, not including the tube amp space heater!! Very Happy
    Certainly no room for 4' tower speakers, huh?? Shocked
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    deepee99

    Posts : 1639
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:17 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:DogStar,
    do you have a 500 sf bathroom?   Or the more typical 15 sf bathroom (soundbooth) which could be mind blowing good for about $500, not including the tube amp space heater!! Very Happy
    Certainly no room for 4' tower speakers, huh?? Shocked
    Roy, you could turn the tub into a bone-conduction bass transducer, then slap on a pair of ear-buds Smile
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    Tube Guy

    Posts : 4
    Join date : 2017-02-19

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Tube Guy on Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:18 pm

    Use M17/113-RG316 interconnect cables (Firefly Black DAC from laptop to VTA 70). The cable frequency response upper limit is 3 GHZ (Moderate overkill LOL) So if I burn these in for 1000 hours, will I ever hear a difference? Don't think so given 20 to 20K spectrum.
    IMHO, burn-in might just be "snake oil" although I've seen many articles to the contrary (mostly from esoteric audio sights that want to sell you something overpriced. e.g cryo cooled wire or oxygen free, think that's just out there and a placebo ...you will never hear a difference.

    Believe sKiZo has a valid point, "don't forget ears". Pareto Principal; 80% of effects come from 20% of causes. Your ears and brain adjust to sound over time. Listen at 115 dB and your ears become less sensitive, a reality of human hearing.
    Output tubes have some value of transconductance and are at an optimum output when they reach operating temperature in approximately 20 minutes. Other than that, they degrade over time.
    Capacitors, weather new or older " form" when powered and can shift slightly in value.
    Chokes, given copper wire should never shift, segue to wire skin effect and weather or not audible changes can even be perceived. I would think not.
    Carbon resistors heat up over time increasing circuit resistance, metal film is more stable and I've not personally noted burn-in changes in sound as the predominant factor is my ability to hear.
    Speakers flex and crossovers often contain capacitors, resistors and chokes. Sure they shift over time and will your ears adjust or cry out that something changed, that is up to you.
    Beware of snake oil.
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    jfine

    Posts : 57
    Join date : 2017-06-19

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by jfine on Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:01 pm

    deepee99 wrote:I've messed around with a lot of electronics in ham and hi-fi over the years. But this "breaking in" business is new to me. Most of the stuff I ever got my arms around was already well broken in, ridden hard and put away wet.
    So the woes of having new stuff are, well, new to me.
    I'm not convinced that a simple wire requires a break-in (or that its directionality matters). Its job is simply to move electrons from Point A to Point B, not modify their collective behaviours.
    However, when you get into tubes, caps, speakers and the like, yes, things do change as they accumulate time on them. Car engines do the same, although having never owned a new one, I can't say for sure how and when.
    Would be interested in your thoughts on optimal break-in time for a few components, my definition being simply, at what point does the device achieve its full potential. Obviously, one's ears adapt to the "new" sound as well, but let's try to eliminate that factor.
    I've listed a few components and (in parentheses) my own experience with them; please feel free to add to this list or set me straight if I'm daft:
    Output tubes: (100 hours)
    Capacitors: (50 hours - arbitrary, just a guess)
    Signal tubes (no clue here)
    Resistors and chokes (is there any?)
    Speakers (1 year).
    That has been my experience and again, we're talking from the time you take the cellophane off to when full potential is realised.
    Thanks,
    David

    IME, wire *does* change, it's happened to me with speaker wire, interconnects, and slightly with power cords/outlets. I have an audiodharma cooker to remedy, can also use it for caps. Sure I'm crazy, so? Check out Jeffs Place blog for over the top discussions. Directionality, mmm, maybe but I haven't heard the diff.

    I'd say your hours is about right, generally. Speakers I can't say as I've never had a new set, I did have a JBL 18" reconed with factory parts, but seemed like it didn't take long at all.






    Dogstar

    Posts : 244
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Dogstar on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:12 pm

    deepee99 wrote:
    tubes4hifi wrote:DogStar,
    do you have a 500 sf bathroom?   Or the more typical 15 sf bathroom (soundbooth) which could be mind blowing good for about $500, not including the tube amp space heater!! Very Happy
    Certainly no room for 4' tower speakers, huh?? Shocked
    Roy, you could turn the tub into a bone-conduction bass transducer, then slap on a pair of ear-buds Smile

    I wish I saw these comments sooner. The bathroom is about 30 square feet. The shower is about 12 square feet of that. I did install a heated floor and can only imagine the danger of turning on a tube amp in a steam filled room even with the exhaust fan doing its best to vent the humidity. I am, however, justifying another tube amp for my bedroom by spending the $5000 plus my labor on the bathroom.
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    deepee99

    Posts : 1639
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:51 pm

    Dogstar wrote:
    deepee99 wrote:
    tubes4hifi wrote:DogStar,
    do you have a 500 sf bathroom?   Or the more typical 15 sf bathroom (soundbooth) which could be mind blowing good for about $500, not including the tube amp space heater!! Very Happy
    Certainly no room for 4' tower speakers, huh?? Shocked
    Roy, you could turn the tub into a bone-conduction bass transducer, then slap on a pair of ear-buds Smile

    I wish I saw these comments sooner. The bathroom is about 30 square feet. The shower is about 12 square feet of that. I did install a heated floor and can only imagine the danger of turning on a tube amp in a steam filled room even with the exhaust fan doing its best to vent the humidity. I am, however, justifying another tube amp for my bedroom by spending the $5000 plus my labor on the bathroom.

    Dogstar, are you rehearsing an upcoming conversation with a certain significant other?
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    pichacker

    Posts : 25
    Join date : 2016-08-01
    Age : 52
    Location : Near to London - UK

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by pichacker on Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:19 am

    Tube Guy wrote:Use M17/113-RG316 interconnect cables (Firefly Black DAC from laptop to VTA 70). The cable frequency response upper limit is 3 GHZ (Moderate overkill LOL) So if I burn these in for 1000 hours, will I ever hear a difference? Don't think so given 20 to 20K spectrum.
    IMHO, burn-in might just be "snake oil" although I've seen many articles to the contrary (mostly from  esoteric audio sights that want to sell you something overpriced. e.g cryo cooled wire or oxygen free, think that's just out there and a placebo ...you will never hear a difference.

    Believe sKiZo has a valid point, "don't forget ears". Pareto Principal; 80% of effects come from 20% of causes. Your ears and brain adjust to sound over time. Listen at 115 dB and your ears become less sensitive, a reality of human hearing.
    Output tubes have some value of transconductance and are at an optimum output when they reach operating temperature in approximately 20 minutes. Other than that, they degrade over time.
    Capacitors, weather new or older " form" when powered and can shift slightly in value.
    Chokes, given copper wire should never shift, segue to wire skin effect and weather or not audible changes can even be perceived.  I would think not.
    Carbon resistors heat up over time increasing circuit resistance, metal film is more stable and I've not personally noted burn-in changes in sound as the predominant factor is my ability to hear.
    Speakers flex and crossovers often contain capacitors, resistors and chokes. Sure they shift over time and will your ears adjust or cry out that something changed, that is up to you.
    Beware of snake oil.  

    Totally agree here.

    But a lot of the "sound" can depend on mood as well. Sometimes I come in, relax and the music flows Smile Smile Other times, same music, I'll pick up on something and it bugs me to the point I cannot relax and I have to turn off and walk away... This is human nature.

    My two cents worth regarding "burn in" is that it does exist to a degree with tube gear as the tube do change with time. But once they have settled then I would not expect anything to change that radically until they start to noticeably wear out.
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    Tubes4ever

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2015-07-14
    Location : Star, Idaho

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Tubes4ever on Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:45 pm

    Tube Guy wrote:Beware of snake oil.

    Completely agree with you, hence my avatar. I just have to roll my eyes at some of the esoteric claims on some of the audio websites such as a device to condition your CD disk by generating an invisible field and then claiming that said disk will now condition the CD player as well.
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    jfine

    Posts : 57
    Join date : 2017-06-19

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by jfine on Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:37 pm

    Tubes4ever wrote:
    Tube Guy wrote:Beware of snake oil.

    Completely agree with you, hence my avatar.  I just have to roll my eyes at some of the esoteric claims on some of the audio websites such as a device to condition your CD disk by generating an invisible field and then claiming that said disk will now condition the CD player as well.

    Yep it's hard to wade thru the online bs, sometimes the weirdest things make a difference.

    Dogstar

    Posts : 244
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:56 pm

    When I purchased my Klipsch driver based speakers the builder told me the drivers came from different Klipsch factory built speakers and I was told I needed to give them time to break in. I found that to be odd since all the drivers were taken from other speakers that were used. Anyway I did notice a difference after maybe 20 (or was it 30, or 50) hours of listening.

    The speaker cabinets were built using MDF and the veneer job looks terrible. So now I'm  considering using birch veneer 3/4 inch thick plywood to build new cabinets. I'm going to build them to exactly the same size including internal bracing. I'm going to not veneer the cabinets except perhaps the edges though I've seen cabinet builds that just sealed the edges and it looked ok to me.

    My question is will these speakers need breaking in again? If so why? I know only time will tell...but idlike to hear others opinions.

    This really is a phenomena I find intriguing because I I do believe other components need to be broken in. Those being the amp and preamp and perhaps even the phono cartridge. I don't believe cables need breaking in.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:10 pm

    Dogstar wrote:When I purchased my Klipsch driver based speakers the builder told me the drivers came from different Klipsch factory built speakers and I was told I needed to give them time to break in. I found that to be odd since all the drivers were taken from other speakers that were used. Anyway I did notice a difference after maybe 20 (or was it 30, or 50) hours of listening.

    The speaker cabinets were built using MDF and the veneer job looks terrible. So now I'm  considering using birch veneer 3/4 inch thick plywood to build new cabinets. I'm going to build them to exactly the same size including internal bracing. I'm going to not veneer the cabinets except perhaps the edges though I've seen cabinet builds that just sealed the edges and it looked ok to me.

    My question is will these speakers need breaking in again? If so why? I know only time will tell...but idlike to hear others opinions.

    This really is a phenomena I find intriguing because I I do believe other components need to be broken in. Those being the amp and preamp and perhaps even the phono cartridge. I don't believe cables need breaking in.

    Dogstar, just surmise here, but new wood for your Klipsch speaks may indeed require breaking in. Witness the price difference between an aged, genuine Stradivarius multi-million dollar violin versus the price of a new violin built to the identical specs and using the identical woods. Some musicians swear by the difference in sound. Who knows? Maybe in 500 years an original pair of corner-horns will fetch a gigabuck or more. Remember Rule One of audiophilia: If it costs more it must sound better.

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    Peter W.

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:16 pm

    I am sitting *VERY* firmly on my fingers!
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    deepee99

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:20 pm

    Peter W. wrote:I am sitting *VERY* firmly on my fingers!
    Make sure you're using Stradivarius glue to hold those fingers down.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:32 pm

    Actually, wood undergoes far more measurable changes over time than anything in the electronics world. There's humidity, for one, that influences wood's sonics and physical characteristics. Try setting a 200-year-old table or tall-case clock built in, say, the UK or New England, and watch the veneers crinkle and pop in the living room of a drier western U.S. climate as it adapts to its new environment. Even big slabs of solid hardwood will undergo warping.

    Dogstar

    Posts : 244
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Dogstar on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:55 am

    deepee99 wrote:Actually, wood undergoes far more measurable changes over time than anything in the electronics world. There's humidity, for one, that influences wood's sonics and physical characteristics. Try setting a 200-year-old table or tall-case clock built in, say, the UK or New England, and watch the veneers crinkle and pop in the living room of a drier western U.S. climate as it adapts to its new environment. Even big slabs of solid hardwood will undergo warping.

    No wonder those Audiophile grade cuckoo clocks cost so much!
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:02 am

    No wonder those Audiophile grade cuckoo clocks cost so much![/quote]

    Clocks are another of my weaknesses. Cuckoo Clocks amongst them. Each of the kids ....
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    corndog71

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by corndog71 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:18 am

    I once rewired the speaker of my alarm clock with some high grade wire. Sounded even more annoying first thing in the morning.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:20 pm

    corndog71 wrote:I once rewired the speaker of my alarm clock with some high grade wire.  Sounded even more annoying first thing in the morning.
    In my college dorm room I set up my mechanical alarm clock on a pie-plate, sort of a crude amplifier. The ringer was so loud it woke up the guy in the next room over, who would then, in not the best of moods, come into my room and roust me.

    Dogstar

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:55 pm

    I put some Harley Davidson motorcycle oil in my lawnmower and it sounded louder.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Breaking In (or Bad)

    Post by deepee99 on Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:49 am

    Dogstar wrote:I put some Harley Davidson motorcycle oil in my lawnmower and it sounded louder.
    Obviously our mods are taking the weekend off or they would have terminated this thread a long time ago. I'll have to try that H-D oil. Do they carry it in the muffler bearings aisle?
    On second thought, bad idea. My wife mows the lawn. Even without glass-packs she is loud enough. Hence the stereo.

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