The Dynaco Tube Audio Forum

Dedicated to the restoration and preservation of all original Dynaco tube audio equipment - Customer support for Dynaco VTA tube amp kits, all Tubes4hifi.com products and all Dynakitparts.com products


    kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Share
    avatar
    tubes4hifi
    Admin

    Posts : 1364
    Join date : 2008-11-30

    kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by tubes4hifi on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:40 pm

    does neatness count ? glad you asked . . . !!
    the small difference between a very noisy preamp and a dead quiet preamp is revealed with just four photos here . . .
    http://tubes4hifi.com/neat.htm

    Dogstar

    Posts : 265
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:04 am

    How about photos that show bad wiring and then good wiring?
    avatar
    Bob Latino
    Admin

    Posts : 2555
    Join date : 2008-11-26
    Location : Massachusetts

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Bob Latino on Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:02 am

    Dogstar wrote:How about photos that show bad wiring and then good wiring?

    Below is bad wiring of a VTA ST-120 ..



    Below is good wiring of a VTA M-125. Note > This is an older M-125 from 2010. The newer M-125's have a different CCS driver board and the wiring of the driver board is slightly different on the newer M-125's than this amp.



    Bob

    Dogstar

    Posts : 265
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:25 am

    Some time ago I was admiring the wiring of some audio components (I do not remember if it was a VTA kit) and I could have sworn there were wire management pieces that looked like posts that were perhaps 1.00 or 1.50 inches high that had a base that was attached to the enclosure surface with adhesive on one end and then a zip tie slot on the other end that would help keep wiring organized and away from the other wires and electronics components. It seemed like it would be something a company like Panduit would produce. I've looked all over the place for these and can't seem to find them and it seems to me that was the only time I saw them. Maybe it was a dream or maybe I saw too many Gwar videos before I looked.

    If anyone knows of anything like that and has used them please let me know where I could find them.

    Dogstar

    Posts : 265
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:54 am

    For some reason I was able to find these

    http://www.essentracomponents.com/en-us/fiber-wire-cable-management/cable-ties-mounts/cable-tie-mounts/cable-tie-mounts-screw-mount-multi-bundle

    though I was hoping for a peel and stick version.

    It looks like you can get them at Mouser.

    mcgyver74

    Posts : 74
    Join date : 2017-03-24
    Location : Jersey City, NJ

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by mcgyver74 on Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:05 pm

    I just finished my 120 and it sounds great Smile My wiring is nowhere near as bad as what Bob shows above, but I am not happy with how it turned out from an aesthetic perspective (I have everything running per the manual and I TRIED to make it neat but I feel like I can do better) My wires are no longer then they need to be and I ran wires along the same paths as shown in the picture that came with the amp.

    I will one day tear it down and re-do it with some PTFE coated wire (So I can have different colors for different things.....Smile ) When i do I will try to pay major attention to Looks as well as ensuring it's correct...
    avatar
    tubes4hifi
    Admin

    Posts : 1364
    Join date : 2008-11-30

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by tubes4hifi on Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:08 pm

    Dogstar,
    did you follow the link to the photos? http://tubes4hifi.com/neat.htm
    avatar
    Dave_in_Va

    Posts : 188
    Join date : 2013-04-02

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dave_in_Va on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:40 pm

    Guts of VTA ST 70. I sure wish I could say I built it but the honors go to Sal The Man.....

    avatar
    j beede

    Posts : 401
    Join date : 2011-02-07
    Location : California

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by j beede on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:46 pm

    The nylon tie anchors I use are from Fry's. They are ~1" square nylon with peel-and-stick adhesive backs. Make you position them carefully--the adhesive is strong and thay are hard to remove once set!


    Dogstar

    Posts : 265
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:01 pm

    tubes4hifi wrote:Dogstar,
    did you follow the link to the photos?   http://tubes4hifi.com/neat.htm

    OK...I saw the photos in the link. Though I don't see any relevance to what I just posted here about wire management.

    j beede wrote:The nylon tie anchors I use are from Fry's. They are ~1" square nylon with peel-and-stick adhesive backs. Make you position them carefully--the adhesive is strong and thay are hard to remove once set!


    I have those and they work nice if its ok to have everything close to the panel surface. I'm interested in being able to elevate the wires. If I can't get what I'm looking for I will use the ones beede suggested.

    Thanks
    avatar
    vtshopdog

    Posts : 100
    Join date : 2015-07-11
    Location : UT, USA

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by vtshopdog on Mon May 01, 2017 12:35 am

    This sticky thread on DIY audio has good information on heater wiring:

    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/211731-heater-wiring-good-bad-ugly.html
    avatar
    MarcVBelgium

    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2013-12-06
    Age : 63
    Location : Antwerp, BELGIUM

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by MarcVBelgium on Mon May 01, 2017 9:53 am

    Dogstar wrote:Some time ago I was admiring the wiring of some audio components (I do not remember if it was a VTA kit) and I could have sworn there were wire management pieces that looked like posts that were perhaps 1.00 or 1.50 inches high that had a base that was attached to the enclosure surface with adhesive on one end and then a zip tie slot on the other end that would help keep wiring organized and away from the other wires and electronics components. It seemed like it would be something a company like Panduit would produce. I've looked all over the place for these and can't seem to find them and it seems to me that was the only time I saw them. Maybe it was a dream or maybe I saw too many Gwar videos before I looked.

    If anyone knows of anything like that and has used them please let me know where I could find them.



    Here's how it looks (they also exist in white...). The website is Dutch....... We find them overhere (Belgium) in any tools store.
    I use them all the time. You put a cable tie through them. They are also self-adhesive.

    https://www.kortpack.nl/nl/kabelbinders-drilbinders/plakzadels/zelfklevende-plakzadels
    avatar
    peterh

    Posts : 837
    Join date : 2012-12-25
    Location : gothenburg, sweden

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by peterh on Mon May 01, 2017 11:10 am

    MarcVBelgium wrote:
    Dogstar wrote:Some time ago I was admiring the wiring of some audio components (I do not remember if it was a VTA kit) and I could have sworn there were wire management pieces that looked like posts that were perhaps 1.00 or 1.50 inches high that had a base that was attached to the enclosure surface with adhesive on one end and then a zip tie slot on the other end that would help keep wiring organized and away from the other wires and electronics components. It seemed like it would be something a company like Panduit would produce. I've looked all over the place for these and can't seem to find them and it seems to me that was the only time I saw them. Maybe it was a dream or maybe I saw too many Gwar videos before I looked.

    If anyone knows of anything like that and has used them please let me know where I could find them.



    Here's how it looks (they also exist in white...).  The website is Dutch.......  We find them overhere (Belgium) in any tools store.
    I use them all the time.  You put a cable tie through them.  They are also self-adhesive.    

    https://www.kortpack.nl/nl/kabelbinders-drilbinders/plakzadels/zelfklevende-plakzadels

    common in sweden too
    https://www.elbutik.se/product.html/buntbandsfasten


    Dogstar

    Posts : 265
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dogstar on Mon May 01, 2017 11:38 am

    I have hundreds of those. I'm looking for ones more like in the link I posted but was hoping they were attached with an adhesive backing.
    avatar
    Dave_in_Va

    Posts : 188
    Join date : 2013-04-02

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Dave_in_Va on Mon May 01, 2017 12:02 pm

    You might try some double sided tape with the "ties" you referenced.
    The guy that installed my new Fios box gave me a piece of 3M 9448A "double coated tissue tape" and told me it was the best (i.e. it really worked).
    These might be the ticket...

    https://www.amazon.com/iFlight-Double-Strong-Mounting-Adhesive/dp/B01MD27IVW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1493654485&sr=8-2&keywords=3m+double+coated+tissue+tape+9448a

    StevieRay

    Posts : 7
    Join date : 2009-01-09
    Age : 55
    Location : Central VA

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by StevieRay on Mon May 01, 2017 3:32 pm

    Back in my previous life -- in an industrial manufacturing facility -- we had these 25-conductor cables, some 50 ft. long, that were at each end soldered to Amphenol MS (military style) connectors.

    I would tell my technicians to take their time building and soldering these, as cable making (and other electronic endeavors) is 1/2 art and 1/2 science -- "the better it looks, the longer it will last."  Needless to say, I would get some chuckles out of that statement.

    When we had a rash of failures -- nicked wires that broke, cold solder joints, shorted wires (easy when those pins are so close together) -- I would sit them down and show them why it took 4 or more hours to build these things correctly.

    You're damn right -- neatness counts.

    The better it looks, the longer it will last.  Oh it may work still, even if it looks like crap, but you'll be back in there to revisit problems often.

    Ever seen how aerospace stuff (space vehicles, planes, tracking / radar systems, etc.) is made?  There's a reason it looks so GOOD!
    avatar
    Peter W.

    Posts : 458
    Join date : 2016-08-07
    Location : Melrose Park, PA

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Peter W. on Mon May 01, 2017 3:37 pm

    [quote="StevieRay"]Back in my previous life -- in an industrial manufacturing facility -- we had these 25-conductor cables, some 50 ft. long, that were at each end soldered to Amphenol MS (military style) connectors.

    I would tell my technicians to take their time building and soldering these, as cable making (and other electronic endeavors) is 1/2 art and 1/2 science -- "the better it looks, the longer it will last."  Needless to say, I would get some chuckles out of that statement.

    When we had a rash of failures -- nicked wires that broke, cold solder joints, shorted wires (easy when those pins are so close together) -- I would sit them down and show them why it took 4 or more hours to build these things correctly.

    Back when I was a machinist, the foreman came into the shop every morning and would yell out: REMEMBER!! you area paid by the hour. NOT by the piece!

    He meant it.

    We were well paid not to make mistakes and to take our time. Then, I went to work in an architectural office, at 1/3 my salary as a machinist. But, that was my degree, after all.

    Neatness counts, ask your surgeon!
    avatar
    deepee99

    Posts : 1695
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by deepee99 on Mon May 01, 2017 5:46 pm

    Peter W. wrote:
    StevieRay wrote:Back in my previous life -- in an industrial manufacturing facility -- we had these 25-conductor cables, some 50 ft. long, that were at each end soldered to Amphenol MS (military style) connectors.

    I would tell my technicians to take their time building and soldering these, as cable making (and other electronic endeavors) is 1/2 art and 1/2 science -- "the better it looks, the longer it will last."  Needless to say, I would get some chuckles out of that statement.

    When we had a rash of failures -- nicked wires that broke, cold solder joints, shorted wires (easy when those pins are so close together) -- I would sit them down and show them why it took 4 or more hours to build these things correctly.

    Back when I was a machinist, the foreman came into the shop every morning and would yell out: REMEMBER!! you area paid by the hour. NOT by the piece!

    He meant it.

    We were well paid  not to make mistakes and to take our time.  Then, I went to work in an architectural office, at 1/3 my salary as a machinist. But, that was my degree, after all.

    Neatness counts, ask your surgeon!
    PeterW, good analogy. A fine naval architect and friend, Bob Perry, used to say, a good looking sailboat is good sailing boat. Details are in the minutiae. .

    avatar
    arledgsc

    Posts : 459
    Join date : 2012-11-30
    Location : SF Bay CA

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by arledgsc on Sat May 06, 2017 12:33 pm

    For serviceability sake YES neatness counts.  When the memory of the build fades and you are forced to reopen the chassis to find a fault you will wish you spent more time on the assembly.  

    I spent twice as much time planning my VTA ST-120 build than it took to actually put it together.  Went over the build instructions at least three times planning wire routing and component placements before taking a soldering iron or screw driver to the kit.  "Measure twice, cut once" is a good habit.
    avatar
    corndog71

    Posts : 562
    Join date : 2013-03-19
    Location : It can get windy here

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by corndog71 on Tue May 09, 2017 9:59 pm

    arledgsc wrote:For serviceability sake YES neatness counts.  When the memory of the build fades and you are forced to reopen the chassis to find a fault you will wish you spent more time on the assembly.  

    I spent twice as much time planning my VTA ST-120 build than it took to actually put it together.  Went over the build instructions at least three times planning wire routing and component placements before taking a soldering iron or screw driver to the kit.  "Measure twice, cut once" is a good habit.  

    Same here.
    avatar
    tubes4hifi
    Admin

    Posts : 1364
    Join date : 2008-11-30

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by tubes4hifi on Thu May 11, 2017 9:39 am


    Many times when I get customer built amps or preamps for service, it takes me twice as long to find and correct a problem then it would if I built it myself,
    so obviously I have to charge them twice as much for labor, because I need to make sure it's actually wired correctly.
    If the wiring is messy, then it's hard to tell what's connected to what, and where. Do it neat, and it's easy to find any problems!
    (Plus likely, if done neat, there AREN'T any problems!

    Sponsored content

    Re: kit builders - DOES NEATNESS COUNT ??

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:55 am