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    Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

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    Dogstar

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    Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Dogstar on Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:20 pm

    I have three turntables and three cartridges and my plans for my home are changing so I'm going to keep only one of each. I know it would be best if I posted photos and I will get to that tomorrow.

    I have a Technics SL1100. It's in very good condition. I bought it from a local seller when I lived in Concinnati. The cover had one very deep scratch until I spent hours buffing out with polishing compound until there no evidence of a ever having a scratch. I do not have the optional probe for it which is plugged into the AC outlet that is in the round pocket where the 45 RPM adapter is stored if you don't have a probe. I hunted high and low on the internet for a strobe and the ones I found on eBay are going for as much as I paid for the turntable. It has the original tonearm with the rectangular shaped counterweight. The only thing I've done to it other than polish out the cover scratch is clean it thoroughly with lens cleaner and Q-tips. It performs flawlessly.

    The SL1100 came with a Shure V15 Type III cartridge. I replaced the stylus due to accidentally breaking off the cantilever shaft. I think I got the exact replacement for it.

    I also have a Technics SL1200MkII that is in very good condition. It was professionally refurbished by the previous owner and it looks and performs perfectly other than two minor scratches on the top surface. It came with an aftermarket cover that feels more like plastic than the thicker acrylic that's on the SL1100. It also came with a heavy duty round steel plate that is designed to dampen any resonance the turntable can pick up from the sound chomping from the speakers. I'll find the plate manufacturer through Google. It also came with a felt mat to use with the plate but I replaced that with a new rubber platter mat.

    The seller also threw in a brand new Shure M97xe (?) cartridge. I purchased a Denon DL110 cartridge a few weeks before I got the SL1200 and I decided to install it to the SL1200 tonearm's head shell.

    And the last turntable is a Thorens TD-160 with the original tonearm. It too has been refurbished. Additionally it had a custom plinth made by a custom plinth maker out of a dense material that is supposed help eliminate any vibration. I think the material is called wood. I'm going to search the Internet to see if I can find the manufacturer of the plinth. I got it at Axpona a few years ago from the owner of SilNote Audio, the cable company.

    I installed the Shure M97xe cartridge on the Thorens turntable's tonearm.

    All three turntables sound good. Because they are in three different rooms on three systems I cannot compare them. The only issue I have is that because of the Thorens TD-160's suspension system it sometimes skips when I'm trying to rush to the listening chair. and from what I've read this is not unique to my turntable. If I keep I'm going to have to get or fabricate a wall mounted shelf to isolate the turntable from the floor.

    I just had granite countertops installed in my kitchen and I have a leftover slab from the sink cutout that may be a perfect shelf for the Thorens.

    I'm going to sell one of my sound systems. The bedroom system will be dedicated to CD's or a tuner or perhaps a music server. The family room system will be devoted to Vinyl LP's or CD's and because of that I need only one turntable.

    Which would you suggest I keep?


    Last edited by Dogstar on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    jfine

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by jfine on Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:39 pm

    I'd keep the 1200, talk to Kevin @ KABUSA, he knows his $hit and nice guy to boot. Or if you're not the upgrade/mod type, maybe the Thorens.
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:51 pm

    jfine wrote:I'd keep the 1200, talk to Kevin @ KABUSA, he knows his $hit and nice guy to boot. Or if you're not the upgrade/mod type, maybe the Thorens.

    Could not agree more with this. Get Kevin to mod the 1200 (arm re-wire and damper are all that's really necessary) and it'll run literally forever.
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    peterh

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by peterh on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:11 am

    i'd keep the thorens any day.
    As for pickup i'm not so sure, but keeping the shure would be the easiest way , it still opens
    up for a ortofon later.

    ramon68

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by ramon68 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:54 am

    Which table sounds best? Shouldn't that be your only consideration?

    Dogstar

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:50 am

    ramon68 wrote:Which table sounds best? Shouldn't that be your only consideration?

    They all sound good.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by deepee99 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:44 pm

    Dogstar wrote:
    ramon68 wrote:Which table sounds best? Shouldn't that be your only consideration?

    They all sound good.

    Well, a guy can't have too many turntables Smile
    Technics were superbly built, but direct-drive turntables *can* have a tendency to rumble. Not saying they all do. Aforementioned Kevin at KABUSA has a $100 cure for rumble and is indeed a pleasure to deal with.
    If you're going to stick with the Thorens, Dave Archambault at http://vinylnirvana.com/ has a superb line of re-built Thorens and AR turntables. I have one of his TD-160 Supers with a Jelco arm coupled to an Ortofon 2M Black cart, the thing is drop-dead quiet without any added suspension gadgetry. No rumble, no bass-feedback even though it's sitting pretty close to one of the speakers, at any volume setting. And like Kevin, Dave's a delight to deal with. Knows his stuff and will mount and align the cartridge, which is IMHO the most annoying aspect of vinyl-ism.
    It's my last turntable. Just wish it had an auto-lift, but we all gotta get out of our chairs once in awhile. I went through a VPI, which could not, even sitting on tennis balls on a bearing wall off the floor, be quiet, and a Rega, which turned backwards. Lesson there is stay away from the high-priced new crap. Overhaul what you've got.
    The V-15 is a very fine cart, too, and with the Jelco tone-arm (designed by Ortofon but built in Japan) you can simply swap out head-shells.





    Dogstar

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:53 pm

    I bought the SL1200 through a post on Audiokarma.org. The original post from the seller stated that the SL1200 was refurbished through KABUSA including rewiring the tonearm.

    If I remember the Thorens was purchased from Vinyl Nirvana. At least that what I think I remember the seller telling me. The seller used it as part of their demo system for SilNote audio cables.


    Last edited by Dogstar on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    deepee99

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by deepee99 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:08 pm

    Dogstar wrote:I bought the SL1200 through a post on Audiokarma.org. The original post from the seller stated that the SL1200 was refurbished through KABUSA including rewriting the tonearm.

    If I remember the Thorens was purchased from Vinyl Nirvana. At least that what I think I remember the seller telling me. The seller used it as part of their demo system for SilNote audio cables.
    Well, that's a win-win situation for you. Comes it down to, What sounds best and quietest to you, given the same cartridge? Kevin and Dave are craftsmen. Their builds are both very, very good.
    I'm going to be trying out one of these levitating turntables: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable-vinyl/x/15724892#/
    Should be interesting. The Ortofon cart is similar to the MM2 Black, so we'll see what happens.




    Dogstar

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:44 pm

    deepee99 wrote:
    Dogstar wrote:I bought the SL1200 through a post on Audiokarma.org. The original post from the seller stated that the SL1200 was refurbished through KABUSA including rewriting the tonearm.

    If I remember the Thorens was purchased from Vinyl Nirvana. At least that what I think I remember the seller telling me. The seller used it as part of their demo system for SilNote audio cables.
    Well, that's a win-win situation for you. Comes it down to, What sounds best and quietest to you, given the same cartridge? Kevin and Dave are craftsmen. Their builds are both very, very good.
    I'm going to be trying out one of these levitating turntables: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable-vinyl/x/15724892#/
    Should be interesting. The Ortofon cart is similar to the MM2 Black, so we'll see what happens.

    Looks cool and I hope it sounds good. Does Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched come with it so she can wiggle her nose and make the platter levitate?
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    deepee99

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by deepee99 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:53 pm

    Dogstar wrote:
    deepee99 wrote:
    Dogstar wrote:I bought the SL1200 through a post on Audiokarma.org. The original post from the seller stated that the SL1200 was refurbished through KABUSA including rewriting the tonearm.

    If I remember the Thorens was purchased from Vinyl Nirvana. At least that what I think I remember the seller telling me. The seller used it as part of their demo system for SilNote audio cables.
    Well, that's a win-win situation for you. Comes it down to, What sounds best and quietest to you, given the same cartridge? Kevin and Dave are craftsmen. Their builds are both very, very good.
    I'm going to be trying out one of these levitating turntables: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable-vinyl/x/15724892#/
    Should be interesting. The Ortofon cart is similar to the MM2 Black, so we'll see what happens.

    Looks cool and I hope it sounds good. Does Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched come with it so she can wiggle her nose and make the platter levitate?
    Oh, I hope so Smile
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:43 pm

    Dogstar wrote:I bought the SL1200 through a post on Audiokarma.org. The original post from the seller stated that the SL1200 was refurbished through KABUSA including rewiring the tonearm.

    If I remember the Thorens was purchased from Vinyl Nirvana. At least that what I think I remember the seller telling me. The seller used it as part of their demo system for SilNote audio cables.

    I have owned a lot of tables over the years (Thorens, JA Michell, Rega, VPI, Sota, etc.) and by a country mile my favorite is the KAB mod'd SL-1200.  If it has the rewire, you are as far as I'm concerned done sans getting the fluid arm damper from KAB which you can install yourself.

    The table is far more isolated than any of the others, rumble is a non existent issue - the damper will mitigate any resonance you may experience using a cartridge whose compliance is not well matched to the arm and will allow tracking of warps etc. with complete ease.

    My KAB SL-1200M5GSE with damper, isonoe feet, strobe disabler, and KAB power supply got me off the turntable merry-go-round about ten years ago at a mere fraction of the cost of the VPI table it replaced. Again, the only thing you really would need to do is add the damper and I'd say you 95% there in regards to everything the table could offer. The other mods are nice but by no means necessary.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by deepee99 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:40 pm

    slate1 wrote:
    Dogstar wrote:I bought the SL1200 through a post on Audiokarma.org. The original post from the seller stated that the SL1200 was refurbished through KABUSA including rewiring the tonearm.

    If I remember the Thorens was purchased from Vinyl Nirvana. At least that what I think I remember the seller telling me. The seller used it as part of their demo system for SilNote audio cables.

    I have owned a lot of tables over the years (Thorens, JA Michell, Rega, VPI, Sota, etc.) and by a country mile my favorite is the KAB mod'd SL-1200.  If it has the rewire, you are as far as I'm concerned done sans getting the fluid arm damper from KAB which you can install yourself.

    The table is far more isolated than any of the others, rumble is a non existent issue - the damper will mitigate any resonance you may experience using a cartridge whose compliance is not well matched to the arm and will allow tracking of warps etc. with complete ease.

    My KAB SL-1200M5GSE with damper, isonoe feet, strobe disabler, and KAB power supply got me off the turntable merry-go-round about ten years ago at a mere fraction of the cost of the VPI table it replaced. Again, the only thing you really would need to do is add the damper and I'd say you 95% there in regards to everything the table could offer. The other mods are nice but by no means necessary.

    Well you're in luck then. Last time I talked to Kevin at KAB (maybe a year ago) he was flat out of hardware, so if you didn't have one he could restore, you were SOL. I haven't checked his website lately as I'm happy with Dave's rehabbed Thorens. Maybe Kevin's got new inventory. Kevin's stuff is keepers, as is Dave Armbichault's. I like 'em both.
    Pioneer's Technics pro series was one of the most under-sold, under-priced and overbuilt Asian gear ever on the market. Ever want an R2R, talk to Jeff a J-Corder in Gig Harbour WA about a serviced-up Technics RS series. Mine's a jewel. Blows the doors off a Revox or Tandberg.

    Kevin does have a nice stash of Ortofon carts, too, at about half the price of Needle-Doctor. I say, go with what you've got. Smile
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:42 pm

    Yep. He's been out of new turntables for quite some time. Panasonic recently re-released an "audiophile" SL-1200 after several years of no new product. New one retails starting for around $4,000.

    Last I talked to Kevin he was still making mods and staying busy working on older tables.
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    vtshopdog

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by vtshopdog on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:57 am

    +1 on KAB stuff. I installed tonearm and Litz wire mod a few years back and am happy with result.

    On a side note, bought the tonearm damper kit and didn't get around to installing it for quite a few months. At that point I kinda had general attitude off "get this thing I bought bolted on so it's not kicking around anymore" and had no expectations that it wouuld do much of anything. Boy was I wrong - it was night and day improvement . Kinda pleasant surprise to have my low expectations proved wrong.
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:19 pm

    [quote="deepee99"]
    Dogstar wrote:I'm going to be trying out one of these levitating turntables: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable-vinyl/x/15724892#/


    ..... I am trying to imagine a scenario where that works out well.  Laughing


    Last edited by slate1 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:24 pm

    slate1 wrote:
    deepee99 wrote:
    Dogstar wrote:I'm going to be trying out one of these levitating turntables: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable-vinyl/x/15724892#/
    Should be interesting.

    ..... I am trying to imagine a scenario where that works out well.  Laughing


    After I posted this, it occurred to me that you may be serious.  If so, I meant no disrespect!  I just don't see this working all that well in regards to speed nor platter stability.  I can see visual platter wobble (beyond the slightly warped record they inexplicably chose to use) in the video.  It's visually compelling, but, I have my doubts as to the ability of the table's performance.  I could be completely proven wrong, however!  ..... wouldn't be the first time by any stretch!  Ha ha.

    HERE IS A LINK to a less pretentious video - you can clearly see the wobble even before an after they "tap" the platter.


    Last edited by slate1 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Peter W. on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:32 pm

    I keep a Revox B790 with an Ortophon MC cartridge and the proper matching Ortophon head-amp (not a transformer). I also keep A much-tweaked Rabco with a Shure cartridge. Either has its charms. But, I am 100% sold-without-reservation on linear turntables.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Peter W. on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:41 pm

    After I posted this, it occurred to me that you may be serious.  If so, I meant no disrespect!  I just don't see this working all that well in regards to speed nor platter stability.  I can see visual platter wobble (beyond the slightly warped record they inexplicably chose to use) in the video.  It's visually compelling, but, I have my doubts as to the ability of he table's performance.  I could be completely proven wrong, however!  ..... wouldn't be the first time by any stretch!  Ha ha.[/quote]

    As it happens, making it utterly stable is trivial. I have some background as a machinist - and the scenario is pretty basic.

    https://www.dropbox.com/personal?preview=maglev+wild+speculation.docx

    Nor would be there be any effect on the cartridge. Between the closed field suspension and the physical distance between the cartridge and those magnets (fixed), interaction will be negligible, if at all. Given the inverse-square ratio of magnetic propagation, even records of significantly different weights would have no real effect on platter height, stability or wobble - within reason, in any case.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet

    These things are POWERFUL - and the more the suspension magnets are spread, the more centered and stable the turntable will be. The real balance will be between the platter height-to-stability ratio as driven by the cost of the magnets vs. how far they can be spread.
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:58 pm

    Peter W. wrote:After I posted this, it occurred to me that you may be serious.  If so, I meant no disrespect!  I just don't see this working all that well in regards to speed nor platter stability.  I can see visual platter wobble (beyond the slightly warped record they inexplicably chose to use) in the video.  It's visually compelling, but, I have my doubts as to the ability of he table's performance.  I could be completely proven wrong, however!  ..... wouldn't be the first time by any stretch!  Ha ha.

    As it happens, making it utterly stable is trivial. I have some background as a machinist - and the scenario is pretty basic.

    https://www.dropbox.com/personal?preview=maglev+wild+speculation.docx  

    Nor would be there be any effect on the cartridge. Between the closed field suspension and the physical distance between the cartridge and those magnets (fixed), interaction will be negligible, if at all. Given the inverse-square ratio of magnetic propagation, even records of significantly different weights would have no real effect on platter height, stability or wobble - within reason, in any case.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet    

    These things are POWERFUL - and the more the suspension magnets are spread, the more centered and stable the turntable will be. The real balance will be between the platter height-to-stability ratio as driven by the cost of the magnets vs. how far they can be spread.

    I won't enter into a scientific debate with you on this because I don't like losing and I would decidedly lose that debate!  Crying or Very sad

    What I can speak to is the audible impact of playing warped records.  The fluid damper I installed on my turntable seems to mitigate this quite well by dampening the resulting resonance created.  That's neither here nor there though.  The real crux of the matter is that from my perspective the job of the turntable is to rotate the record as cleanly and precisely as possible so that the cartridge and tonearm can extract as true a signal as possible.  To that end, aside from the visual allure of the Mag-lev, I don't see this doing the job any better than my direct drive SL-1200 or any number of belt drive tables I've owned over the years.

    Now, admittedly, all of this remains to be seen as the production model hasn't hit the streets yet - my cheese could be completely off my cracker here and it may indeed prove to be a real winner!  I'm just not convinced - especially in the conspicuous absence of specifications given on rumble, speed accuracy or wow/flutter.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Peter W. on Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:34 pm

    I won't enter into a scientific debate with you on this because I don't like losing and I would decidedly lose that debate!  Crying or Very sad

    What I can speak to is the audible impact of playing warped records.  The fluid damper I installed on my turntable seems to mitigate this quite well by dampening the resulting resonance created.  That's neither here nor there though.  The real crux of the matter is that from my perspective the job of the turntable is to rotate the record as cleanly and precisely as possible so that the cartridge and tonearm can extract as true a signal as possible.  To that end, aside from the visual allure of the Mag-lev, I don't see this doing the job any better than my direct drive SL-1200 or any number of belt drive tables I've owned over the years.

    Now, admittedly, all of this remains to be seen as the production model hasn't hit the streets yet - my cheese could be completely off my cracker here and it may indeed prove to be a real winner!  I'm just not convinced - especially in the conspicuous absence of specifications given on rumble, speed accuracy or wow/flutter.[/quote]

    Oh, I agree that this is unproven technology at as tiny a scale as a turntable. I have ridden on the MagLev in Shanghai, and it is quite something. But not quite the same thing.

    But, from a purely mechanical POV, I see nothing particularly difficult in the concept, and I see examples of each sort of problem executed and solved all the time. The devil will be in the details, but they will not be related to rumble as there will be nothing to rumble. Nor will speed accuracy be an issue, as clearances for the Hall-effect motor will be no worse than on my Revox, which is plenty accurate. I see the keys here being level control (wobble) (not overall, but one side higher than the other due to disk weight differences) and wow due to offsetting forces.  All of which may be addressed with better (more expensive) magnets - and, believe me -  the magnets will be the heaviest cost of this TT. The individual bits of the technology are all current and established. Putting it together is not.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by deepee99 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:57 pm

    Well, I'm the (as usual) Guinea pig here. The Mag-Lev was crowd-funded and I got in early. So either I'm out $500 or up 5 large. Film at 11. Can't imagine giving up my antique Thorens, but we'll see.
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    slate1

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by slate1 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:30 pm

    deepee99 wrote:Well, I'm the (as usual) Guinea pig here. The Mag-Lev was crowd-funded and I got in early. So either I'm out $500 or up 5 large. Film at 11. Can't imagine giving up my antique Thorens, but we'll see.

    I look forward to your review - being very sincere. Who knows, man, may be simply fantastic!
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    jfine

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by jfine on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:19 pm

    I put one of these on my 1200, one of the best upgrades ever, no bull$hit, and I did have the fluid damper, rewire, etc.,

    http://www.trans-fi.com/clientscorner.htm

    Dogstar

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    Re: Which turntable and cartridge would you keep?

    Post by Dogstar on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:14 am

    That tonearm does look interesting.

    After starting this thread I decided I should conduct a test of each turntable.

    The first one up was the Thorens TD-160 with the Shure M97xE cartridge. I set it up with my VTA ST-120 amp, Cary SL-100 preamp, Cambrige Audio 651P phono preamp. Before today my turntables have sat idle for a long time so I in order to get everything set up I put the tube amp one shelf down on my audio rack and in a very short time the bottom of the top shelf became very hot (almost too hot to touch) so I shut everything down and will rethink my setup to continue testing.

    One thing I did try out was a Blue Note 180 gram vinyl I bought a few years ago and never opened. For the short time I did play the LP it did sound pretty good. But I listened to only the first song and feel I need to audition the turntable longer.

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