The Dynaco Tube Audio Forum

Dedicated to the restoration and preservation of all original Dynaco tube audio equipment - Customer support for Dynaco VTA tube amp kits, all Tubes4hifi.com products and all Dynakitparts.com products


    Replacing tubes.

    Share

    Dogstar

    Posts : 288
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dogstar on Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:00 pm

    Awhile ago after two years of use one of four TungSol KT-120's red plated more than likely from a resistor going bad. Maybe it was the other way around but either way I replaced the resistor and then installed 4 Gold Lion KT-88's and a GZ34 rectifier that I've been using now for about 1.5 years without an issue. I've mentioned that I thought I preferred the KT-120's but I haven't invested in another 4 of those or at least one to replace the dead one. I emailed Jim McShane telling him I'd like to perhaps buy one KT-120 but when told him I got them from Tube Depot he said he couldn't help me because he wouldn't be able to match one to the other three. Is it really necessary to have a matched quad as I believe McShane is implying? I thought that because the VTA ST-120 I have requires that I bias the tubes that that eliminates the need to have a matched quad of tubes. What's the real story?

    Jim McShane

    Posts : 191
    Join date : 2011-10-19
    Location : South Suburban Chicago

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Jim McShane on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:52 pm

    Dogstar wrote:Awhile ago after two years of use one of four TungSol KT-120's red plated more than likely from a resistor going bad. Maybe it was the other way around but either way I replaced the resistor and then installed 4 Gold Lion KT-88's and a GZ34 rectifier that I've been using now for about 1.5 years without an issue. I've mentioned that I thought I preferred the KT-120's but I haven't invested in another 4 of those or at least one to replace the dead one. I emailed telling him I'd like to perhaps buy one KT-120 but when told him I got them from Tube Depot he said he couldn't help me because he wouldn't be able to match one to the other three. Is it really necessary to have a matched quad as I believe McShane is implying? I thought that because the VTA ST-120 I have requires that I bias the tubes that that eliminates the need to have a matched quad of tubes. What's the real story?

    Hold on a minute!

    You wrote me and said you had a single tube failure and you were thinking you needed to get another quad. In the same email you then asked if I could supply a single tube to match the tubes you had that were still good. I said yes - just provide me some some information from the tube box so I can match it for you. My exact reply was:

    "If you can send me the number written in black Sharpie marker from the tube box along with the "Gm:" number printed on the small label on the box I can likely send you a matching replacement."

    You then said you didn't purchase the tubes from me - they were purchased from another vendor (Tube Depot). I then explained that I had no idea what parameters they used when matching their tubes so I couldn't match the existing tubes for you - and so if you were choosing between a single and a quad all I could send is a quad. I said that since it was the other option you asked about.  When you said you'd send me as much info as you could find, my exact reply was:

    "I'm afraid that won't help. I have no way of knowing what parameters they use to match the tubes. So I'm afraid I can't send you a single matching tube - I can send a single but it may not (probably won't) match."

    I offered to send you a single and warned you that it would likely not match. What else could I have done?

    So to write here "What's the real story?" it sounds to me like you are saying I did not deal with you honestly and forthrightly. If I misunderstood or I'm being oversensitive maybe you could clear up what you meant for me - please.

    For the record - I do not and I WILL not deal dishonestly with my customers. Nor will I attempt to sell them more then they need or want.
    avatar
    Dave_in_Va

    Posts : 197
    Join date : 2013-04-02

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dave_in_Va on Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:59 pm


    Dogstar

    Posts : 288
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dogstar on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:13 pm

    Jim McShane wrote:
    Dogstar wrote:Awhile ago after two years of use one of four TungSol KT-120's red plated more than likely from a resistor going bad. Maybe it was the other way around but either way I replaced the resistor and then installed 4 Gold Lion KT-88's and a GZ34 rectifier that I've been using now for about 1.5 years without an issue. I've mentioned that I thought I preferred the KT-120's but I haven't invested in another 4 of those or at least one to replace the dead one. I emailed telling him I'd like to perhaps buy one KT-120 but when told him I got them from Tube Depot he said he couldn't help me because he wouldn't be able to match one to the other three. Is it really necessary to have a matched quad as I believe McShane is implying? I thought that because the VTA ST-120 I have requires that I bias the tubes that that eliminates the need to have a matched quad of tubes. What's the real story?

    Hold on a minute!

    You wrote me and said you had a single tube failure and you were thinking you needed to get another quad. In the same email you then asked if I could supply a single tube to match the tubes you had that were still good. I said yes - just provide me some some information from the tube box so I can match it for you. My exact reply was:

    "If you can send me the number written in black Sharpie marker from the tube box along with the "Gm:" number printed on the small label on the box I can likely send you a matching replacement."

    You then said you didn't purchase the tubes from me - they were purchased from another vendor (Tube Depot). I then explained that I had no idea what parameters they used when matching their tubes so I couldn't match the existing tubes for you - and so if you were choosing between a single and a quad all I could send is a quad. I said that since it was the other option you asked about.  When you said you'd send me as much info as you could find, my exact reply was:

    "I'm afraid that won't help. I have no way of knowing what parameters they use to match the tubes. So I'm afraid I can't send you a single matching tube - I can send a single but it may not (probably won't) match."

    I offered to send you a single and warned you that it would likely not match. What else could I have done?

    So to write here "What's the real story?" it sounds to me like you are saying I did not deal with you honestly and forthrightly. If I misunderstood or I'm being oversensitive maybe you could clear up what you meant for me - please.

    For the record - I do not and I WILL not deal dishonestly with my customers. Nor will I attempt to sell them more then they need or want.

    Hold on a minute? For what?

    I never implied dishonestly. I never asked If you could supply a matching tube.

    Here is the exact correspondence from our emails:

    A long time ago I bought a quad of TungSol KT-120's. One red plated
    and I then found out that I had a bad solder connection that toasted a
    resistor so I think the resistor caused the tube to red plate. I never
    tried the red plated tube again. And now I'm not sure which of the
    quad is the one that did. I was thinking I need to buy another quad
    but at the least I would think I can buy one KT-120 to complete the
    quad I currently have. Is that correct?

    Currently I'm running a quad of Genelex KT-88's and a GZ34 I bought
    from you.

    I liked the KT-120's. Personally I preferred the sound with the custom
    Klipsche speakers I have.

    I'd also like to try something different as well. The $200 per quad
    price is my limit. I'm not wealthy enough to justify spending tons of
    money on vintage Mullards though they may sound phenomenal. I probably
    will never know because I can't see spending more than I said.

    As far as something different I'm even considering 6550's or KT-66's
    if I can run them in the VTA ST-120.

    So far all if my 12AU7's seem to be running OK.

    So can you offer a suggestion about the KT-120's? Can I buy one to
    complete my quad? And what else would you suggest if I want to try
    something different?

    I also have spare Sovtek KT-88's that I'm figuring I can run in a
    Tubelab SSE amp once I get that amp going.

    Thanks in advance,

    Blake


    I read through that first email several times to see if I could find where I asked you to sell me a 'matching' tube and I just don't see it.

    I was looking to you for advice about buying just one tube to replace one that went bad.

    Your email that followed I told you about buying the tubes from Tube Depot:

    Blake,

    I'm afraid that won't help. I have no way of knowing what parameters they use to match the tubes.

    So I'm afraid I can't send you a single matching tube - I can send a single but it may not (probably won't) match.

    Sorry!


    Your email made me think that it might be bad to use non-matching tubes. And since it did not say anything about whether it would be bad for the amp or not sound right, etc. that the best place for me to get the answer to my question was here since you did not seem to know.

    This is the second time that correspondence between you and I has turned into you claiming I implied you are dishonest. Which is why I felt it necessary to paste the entire email from me into this message. Quite frankly I'm tired of your accusations and in all honesty Tube Depot has never done me wrong. They may be a few dollars more but after what you posted here Id rather spend a few extra dollars to avoid putting food on your table.

    And to be completely transparent I see that I accidently typed Mallards rather than Mullards and I corrected that before posting this. I'm sure everyone will agree that no matter what breed of duck I install they won't sound as good as TungSols or Gold Lions.
    avatar
    j beede

    Posts : 412
    Join date : 2011-02-07
    Location : California

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by j beede on Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:38 pm

    Red plating is not good for a tube. I don't recommend you purposefully red plate any tube... but is not necessarily fatal. Have your set of four tested on a MaxiMatcher. If they still match, job done. If one tube is an outlier have a replacement fourth MaxiMatched to the other three and toss the bad one.

    Either way you don't need to buy a new quad.





    avatar
    corndog71

    Posts : 575
    Join date : 2013-03-19
    Location : It can get windy here

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by corndog71 on Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:35 pm

    In the simplest terms, an unmatched pair of tubes may cause one of them to work harder than the other and will wear out sooner. At least that’s my understanding of it.

    Not all vendors match tubes the same way.
    avatar
    peterh

    Posts : 874
    Join date : 2012-12-25
    Location : gothenburg, sweden

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by peterh on Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:39 am

    Dogstar,
    you wrote "Can I buy one to complete my quad?"
    for a person that knows how important it is that tubes are matched in this amp, the implies question is
    "can i get a matched replacement". The idea to send a randomly choosen tube to you is not on the map.

    Thus as for wordings, you are both right. One of you spoke from experience and knowledge.
    Btw way, get new tubes, once redplated they are not in original condition and might damage other stuff.

    Dogstar

    Posts : 288
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:08 am

    So you guys are telling me that once one tube out of a set dies the whole set is useless in what they originally purposed for?
    avatar
    Bob Latino
    Admin

    Posts : 2579
    Join date : 2008-11-26
    Location : Massachusetts

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Bob Latino on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:20 am

    Dogstar wrote:So you guys are telling me that once one tube out of a set dies the whole set is useless in what they originally purposed for?

    If one tube of a matched quad dies what I would do is to buy a matched PAIR of tubes for that channel. Use the new matched pair and save the one tube from the old pair that is good as a spare. Yes - now you have a new matched pair that maybe does not perfectly match the other pair but I have done this in the past and it works fine.  The VTA ST-70 and VTA ST-120 have individual bias pots for each output tube. This helps somewhat to allow tubes that are not perfectly matched to work together.

    Bob
    avatar
    Dave_in_Va

    Posts : 197
    Join date : 2013-04-02

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dave_in_Va on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:40 am

    When I had one xf2 Mullard EL34 go south, I just bought another one (eBay), installed and biased.
    I love the fact that my VTA ST70 has four bias pots.
    avatar
    WntrMute2

    Posts : 111
    Join date : 2010-11-21

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by WntrMute2 on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:14 am

    i don't really understand where you guys went wrong BUT I have to say that every transaction I've had with Jim McShane has been perfect. I have bought dozens of tubes and have always felt fairly dealt with. Not to imply anything about Dogstar, but Jim is one of the good guys. Probably too late now that bridges have been burnt, but I think someone could test the three good tubes and find a close match.

    Dogstar

    Posts : 288
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:23 pm

    I don't have any problem with any transaction with Jim but when I posted this question here on this forum he somehow read into what wrote to mean that accused him of being dishonest which is not the case at all. How could anyone think they were being accused of being dishonest when all I asked was whether tubes needs to be be matched or not. How could there be an implication of dishonesty since there was no transfer of funds or a product less that what was paid for or promised to be delivered.

    What I do have a problem with is his accusation that I implied he was dishonest and then making that the topic of this discussion here rather than focusing on the question I had. Since he chose to change make this accusation of me I felt the need to defend myself.

    A few years ago I had a problem with a rectifier tube that I bought from him and in private there was no issue. It died within the warranty period and he did replace it. No complaints. But on the forum here he made these accusations that I seemed to purposely go out of my way to NOT jump out of my listening chair and fly across the room and reach in back of my amp to shut the system down before the tube completely died. And because of my failure to respond quickly enough he could test the tube to find why it died. And with the way he worded what he said he made it seem that I wanted to purposely make it so he could not test why the tube died.

    I'm tired of these public accusations and because of that I'm finished dealing with Jim McShane.

    wildiowa

    Posts : 171
    Join date : 2012-03-19

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by wildiowa on Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:19 pm

    This thread will disappear soon as it is getting kinda personal, but on the other hand it also concerns a business we all do...business with or have at one time. I suggest to be safe not even mentioning Jim at all in any posts. I did a few months ago in passing responding to somebody looking for a tube source or something, nothing controversial or provocative, and he jumped back on me almost immediately on this board and was so defensive and cranky. I have done business with him many years, nothing big a few tubes here and there, and he was great. But seems a bit quick on the trigger and harsher lately. Nobody is meaning to give him any crap or imply anything. Maybe it's the Facebook culture we live in, where any perceived slight or comment is interpreted funky and you gotta get right back in their face. I know he reads this daily so I'm in trouble.

    Jim McShane

    Posts : 191
    Join date : 2011-10-19
    Location : South Suburban Chicago

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Jim McShane on Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:31 pm

    Dogstar,

    You wrote in your first post above: "Is it really necessary to have a matched quad as I believe McShane is implying? I thought that because the VTA ST-120 I have requires that I bias the tubes that that eliminates the need to have a matched quad of tubes. What's the real story?"

    "What's the real story?"

    IMHO that says to a reader that the story from me was not real; and that was not the case - it was the real story.

    It was also not true that (as mentioned in your post just above) you were told to "jump out of my listening chair and fly across the room and reach in back of my amp to shut the system down before the tube completely died." in the prior transaction.

    If anyone would like to read the prior thread Dogstar is referring to look here: Prior Dogstar Thread After reading the thread you can decide for yourself if I was out of line.

    The reader can also see that he accused me of being less than honest and forthright ("covering up a bad batch of tubes"). I also can't see anything I asked him to do that was anywhere close to "jump out of my listening chair and fly across the room and reach in back of my amp to shut the system down before the tube completely died."

    Believe me Dogstar, you are better off getting your tubes elsewhere if dealing with me is so aggravating. I concur with your decision and I won't be able to supply tubes for you in the future I'm afraid. I'm very sorry it came to this and I'll take full responsibility for it.

    As I posted a couple years ago in the prior thread mentioned above:

    "I just wanted everyone to know that I really appreciate the recommendations that Bob Latino gives me, and I take them very seriously. I feel I'm responsible for Bob's good name as well as my own - that's why I try go go above and beyond the call to help members of this forum. And why I take accusations like those leveled at me very seriously."

    Bob may opt to lock this thread and that's fine with me. Whatever he thinks is best is good.

    Jim McShane

    Posts : 191
    Join date : 2011-10-19
    Location : South Suburban Chicago

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Jim McShane on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:03 pm

    wildiowa wrote:This thread will disappear soon as it is getting kinda personal, but on the other hand it also concerns a business we all do...business with or have at one time. I suggest to be safe not even mentioning Jim at all in any posts. I did a few months ago in passing responding to somebody looking for a tube source or something, nothing controversial or provocative, and he jumped back on me almost immediately on this board and was so defensive and cranky. I have done business with him many years, nothing big a few tubes here and there, and he was great. But seems a bit quick on the trigger and harsher lately. Nobody is meaning to give him any crap or imply anything. Maybe it's the Facebook culture we live in, where any perceived slight or comment is interpreted funky and you gotta get right back in their face. I know he reads this daily so I'm in trouble.

    Hi wildiowa!

    I went back to look at the post you are describing. And I honestly can't begin to understand what you mean by I "jumped all over you". The post is here:

    McShane Post Thread

    It must have been my post #11 you were referring to.

    Please - let me know what it is that I wrote that you felt was me jumping all over you because it certainly wasn't intended to (I'm so sorry if you felt it was). It'd be greatly appreciated. And you are in NO trouble with me!!

    I post here for one reason - Bob Latino invited to me post here if I could be helpful or had a salient point to make. He wanted to make the experience better for all the members. And after getting to know Bob (and many of the posters here) at least a little bit I consider it an honor to be a contributor to the forum. You may not agree with everything I post but I feel I have a responsibility to offer the best help/advice I can when I reply in a thread or start one up. And I do my best to do just that!

    So I hope that if we disagree it isn't taken as a personal affront/attack because it isn't meant to be one.
    avatar
    PeterCapo

    Posts : 455
    Join date : 2008-12-05

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by PeterCapo on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:10 pm

    If I may, a drawback with written communication is a lack of nonverbal cues that you have in-person. Lacking nonverbal cues makes misunderstanding more likely.
    avatar
    Bob Latino
    Admin

    Posts : 2579
    Join date : 2008-11-26
    Location : Massachusetts

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Bob Latino on Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:03 pm

    It is unfortunate at times when something posted on a forum is misinterpreted or misunderstood. I have sent a number of customers to Jim McShane for tube sets. No one has ever Emailed me or personal messaged me with anything negative about their experience with Jim either before or (more importantly) AFTER the sale. If you want a well tested and well matched set of tubes for your tube amp/preamp, send Jim a PM through the forum here.

    Bob
    avatar
    deepee99

    Posts : 1759
    Join date : 2012-05-23
    Location : Wallace, Idaho

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by deepee99 on Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:18 pm

    Dave_in_Va wrote:
    Dave, re-watch Cool Hand Luke. The precise quote is, "What we have here is failure to communicate." Not "a failure. . ."
    Strother Martin starred with many Newman films, including "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." Great actor.
    Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but somebody's gotta troll this board.
    Cheers,
    Dave
    avatar
    Dave_in_Va

    Posts : 197
    Join date : 2013-04-02

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dave_in_Va on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:02 pm

    I know. That's just an grab off the internet.

    Dogstar

    Posts : 288
    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:45 pm

    As someone else here has said it seems that Jim is quick on the trigger. The simple fact that you interpreted the phrase 'what's the real story?' to imply dishonesty when I think most would not think that at all.

    As far as the other issue I brought up it was from about three years ago not the thread you mentioned.

    Jim. You need to stop thinking that people are making personal attacks on you all the time. You're going to lose more than me as a customer.

    I certainly didn't think this thread was going to turn into a battle of semantics of honesty and dishonesty along with me being slammed because I'm responding to accusations. I hoped to get an answer like the one Bob gave along with alternative answers that other have given that are focused more on the technical side of the issue.

    Jim McShane

    Posts : 191
    Join date : 2011-10-19
    Location : South Suburban Chicago

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Jim McShane on Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:41 pm

    Dogstar wrote:As someone else here has said it seems that Jim is quick on the trigger. The simple fact that you interpreted the phrase 'what's the real story?' to imply dishonesty when I think most would not think that at all.

    As far as the other issue I brought up it was from about three years ago not the thread you mentioned.

    Jim. You need to stop thinking that people are making personal attacks on you all the time. You're going to lose more than me as a customer.

    I certainly didn't think this thread was going to turn into a battle of semantics of honesty and dishonesty along with me being slammed because I'm responding to accusations. I hoped to get an answer like the one Bob gave along with alternative answers that other have given that are focused more on the technical side of the issue.

    This is my last post on this issue. My apologies to Bob for using up the bandwidth...

    1. You never purchased any tubes from me prior to May/June of 2015. You purchased the KT-88 Genalex quad you wrote about in May 2015 and the U77/GZ34 Genalex in June 2015. I searched my records, then followed up with a search of the forum records. There is no other thread on this issue before that and I searched back to your join date - 2014-06-23. The thread I mentioned was the correct thread. Period.

    2. One other person said I was "quick on the trigger". I don't think I was but I asked him to let me know what made him feel that way so we can make peace. If you want to say that "it seems that Jim is quick on the trigger" I can't stop you. But I feel safe in saying that is not a widely held view. If you feel like I don't post properly or I don't abide by the rules of the forum then write Bob Latino and tell him to kick me out.

    3. Accusing me of "covering up a bad batch of tubes" as you wrote me isn't a personal attack?? Well - if anyone who read the entire 2015 thread agrees with you I encourage them to write Bob Latino as well and demand my removal from the forum.

    Maybe you'd be happier if I simply stopped coming here to post. Well, now's your chance to take action. Rally all those McShane haters out there who know I'm "quick on the trigger" and insist Bob throw me out.

    But before I sign off this thread I want to tel you what I'm going to do. I'm going to send you a brand new KT-120 free of charge. No invoice, no shipping, no nothing - absolutely free. It'll ship out Monday and I'll make my best guess at what would match your existing tubes and that's the tube I'll send. If you don't want it just smash it and throw it in the trash.
    avatar
    Bob Latino
    Admin

    Posts : 2579
    Join date : 2008-11-26
    Location : Massachusetts

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Bob Latino on Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:57 am

    I am going to lock this post .. Everyone has expressed their opinion and there is no sense in continuing the arguing ..

    Bob

    Sponsored content

    Re: Replacing tubes.

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:08 pm