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    Speaker Output Impedance question

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    Dogstar

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    Join date : 2014-06-23

    Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Dogstar on Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:50 pm

    I got a pair of SilNote Audio bottom of the line speaker cables today and decided to replace the 12 gauge speaker wire cables that I've been using for the last 4 years with my ST-120. Quite frankly I wanted to believe that high end speaker cables, even if they are the bottom the line speakers cables SilNote Audio markets, could sound like the added expense is worth the money. I don't know if they truly are worth the money but they do improve the sound coming from my speakers. I didn't pay for them so my opinion is not influenced by me wanting to subconsciously convince myself that since they are priced at $800 that they have to sound good.

    I also got a SilNote Audio power cable and to me I just don't see how a high priced power cable can improve sound either.

    If anyone can tell me why either should make my system sound way better I'd appreciate some feedback.

    Anyway...I bought my amp built by Bob Latino and just make sure the normal wiring configuration has it so the speaker outputs are: common (black)  - 4 ohm - 8 ohm?

    Thanks in advance.


    Last edited by Dogstar on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Roy

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Roy on Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:51 am

    You should try snipping an inch off your older cables for fresh copper screwing on the bananaplugs nice and tight both ends again and trying those again Dogstar - I forgot the measurements on my cables but it was pretty bad lol.. I forgot to do that this last year and when I did the sound difference was noticable to my wife even who usually pays little attention to things like that..


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    Peter W.

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    Location : Melrose Park, PA

    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Peter W. on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:00 am

    Dogstar wrote:I got a pair of SilNote Audio bottom of the line speaker cables today and decided to replace the 12 gauge speaker wire cables that I've been using for the last 4 years with my ST-120. Quite frankly I wanted to believe that high end speaker cables, even if they are the bottom the line speakers cables SilNote Audio markets, could sound like the added expense is worth the money. I don't know if they truly are worth the money but they do improve the sound coming from my speakers. I didn't pay for them so my opinion is not influenced by me wanting to subconsciously convince myself that since they are priced at $800 that they have to sound good.

    I also got a SilNote Audio power cable and to me I just see how a high priced power cable can improve sound either.

    If anyone can tell me why either should make my system sound way better I'd appreciate some feedback.

    Anyway...I bought my amp built by Bob Latino and just make sure the nore wiring configuration has it so the speaker outputs are: common (black)  - 4 ohm - 8 ohm?

    Thanks in advance.

    I am trying hard not to be snarky!

    OK. Starting with the obvious:
    a) You remade a 4-year old connection. That, alone could make an improvement.
    b) If you went from banana plugs or some similar friction-fit connection to a clamped or crimped or screw connection, you likely will hear an improvement.
    c) Even with 12 gauge wire, if you shortened the run significantly, that could yield a positive result. Or if the run is very long and the new cables are greater than 12 ga., same result.
    d) And, if you diddled with the speaker location(s) in the slightest, that *will* change your perception.
    e) Or any other changes to the listening venue that you may have made concurrent with the cable change.

    As to a power cable:

    Right now, where I am sitting, most of our power comes from a wind-farm in Columbia County, PA via the PMJ interconnect. So, the actual electrons may be from any number of sources, but we pay a tiny bit more for the good feelings relating to wind power. That, as the crow flies, is a bit over 100 miles away. The (DC) power from the turbines is converted to 13,200 VAC by an industrial Grid-Tie inverter and injected into the power lines. From there, it travels to a sub-station where it is kicked up to 765,000 VAC for transmission. From there, it comes to another sub-station in Montgomery County, PA where it is dropped back down to 13,200 VAC and distributed into the various neighborhoods via conventional power-poles. At some point near our house, it is dropped down (again) to 240 VAC, single-phase, and sent into our house via aluminum triplex. From there through a 200A main breaker onto a plated copper buss-bar where it is distribute to the various breakers into the house. And thence via copper wire to the receptacle nearest amp.  Imagine the impact of a couple of meters of expensive cable on that system.  Inverter-Transformer-Transformer-Transformer-Breaker-Breaker-receptacle. Not to mention a mix of aluminum and aluminum alloy transmission wires.
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    Roy

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Roy on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:09 am

    Oh cables cán make a difference Peter - high capacitance ones can send a ( badly designed ) amp into oscillations lol.. And some of the extremely expensive cables ( > 5000USD ) show a few tenths of a decibels differences across the spectrum compared to  áll of the speakercables nót costing >5000USD   Plenty of ( much trolled on ) measurements done out there. But yeah - the right gauge for the distance and power requirement intended and it is pretty much as good as it gets with just regular good quality OFC copper loudspeaker wire of any reputable vendor ( not monoprice.. ) and snipping the ends off every 6-12 months or so when using screw in bananaplugs, or tinning the ends with some silver and/or heatshrinking the ends properly or even using some acid free vaseline just like on your car battery terminal to minimize oxidation does make a difference most definately



    btw Dogstar : http://dynacotubeaudio.forumotion.com/t3416-speaker-taps-vtast70?highlight=vta+70+taps
    for the diff impedance taps

    Dogstar

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:32 am

    Thanks for the link for the impedance.

    So I did try clipping off an inch on both ends of the 12 gauge stranded wire and reattached the banana plugs and the sound seemed better but not much, but that could have been psychological since I went through the effort. I do have another pair of speaker cables I made at the same time since the wire came in a 50 foot spool and I could do a fairly quick A-B comparison to check to see if that was worth the effort.

    However even with me being sceptical and not wanting to believe the SilNote speaker cable can improve the sound considerably the difference in sound was significant. Voices and instruments sounded clearer and better defined and it did seem as if the space the music was playing in became more dimensional.

    That's the problem with being an audiophile.
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    Roy

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Roy on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:48 am

    If those Silnote speakers are silver wire - yes, that can affect the sound somewhat.

    I have a pair of Van Den Hull silver wires - never need to clip the ends off those ever for one! but I found while they made a níce difference in my previous setup with a pair of Bowers and Wilkins Matrix 3's  when I used them with my current Kef Reference 3.2  the plain vanilla VLS brand ofc copper wires made the sound a little less  bright  - which fits better with these kefs..

    Not a huge difference at all, but enough for my aspie mind to keep the copper ones attached these days ^^

    Dogstar

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:06 am

    The speakers I hooked them up are almost Klipshe Forte's. I got them from a guy that offered to build me a pair using the woofers and midranges from Forte's and tweeters from Heresy's and crossovers from Bob Crites. The cabinets are MDF. When I first got them I wasn't impressed with them at all. For one the veneer job makes them look terrible and I thought the sound was muffled. The builder convinced me to give them about 20 hours to break in. After that time the sound opened up though the sound seemed subdued. And I compared them to a pair of mint JBL L100T3's and another pair of speakers others here stick their noses up when I mention the brand and model. After the break in they sounded pretty good compared to my other speakers. I keep thinking if I build cabinets for the Klipsche speakers out of plywood the sound quality will improve

    And now the Klipsche speakers paired with these cables seem to have added more life to them. Later today I will drag the JBL's in and give those a listen. Those are not the bookshelf speakers everyone thinks about. They are three-way towers.

    Anyway...as reluctant about high priced speaker as I am I'm more satisfied with the deal I made to get these cables.
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    Roy

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Roy on Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:33 am

    Could be those other branded woofers are just too slow to keep up w that horned mid and tweet compared to the originals - though that also would be a rather large driver with a little slow reacting mass to it wouldnt it.. Some designs I liked in the past make up for things by placing that large woofer a little forward with respect to the mid and highs which seems to work well. Might be a worthwhile experiment to do someday? ( http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam98-mkII.htm this is decent example of what I mean )

    Dogstar

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:24 pm

    Roy wrote:Could be those other branded woofers are   just too slow to keep up w that horned mid and tweet compared to the originals - though that also would be a rather large driver with a little slow reacting mass to it wouldnt it..    Some designs I liked in the past make up for things by placing that large woofer a little forward with respect to the mid and highs which seems to work well. Might be a worthwhile experiment to do someday?  (  http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam98-mkII.htm this is decent example of what I mean )

    But they are all Klipsche designed and fabricated...the woofer and midrange are out of Klipsche Forte's and the tweeter is out of a Heresy... The woofers were rebuilt also.

    The reason I think plywood cabinets would be better because the original Klipsche speakers as well as the Bob Crites designed speakers are fabricated from plywood.... Or maybe it's a psychological think. I see more and furniture of all kinds made from MDF that over time turn into crap because MDF is pressed fiber board that's heavy and not resilient at all.

    I do remember a long time ago a speaker manufacturer advertised that their design was exactly as the troelsgravesen speakers are in that link. I've considered building cabinets like those over the years but I'm a professional procrastinator.
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    Roy

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Roy on Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:35 pm

    ^^

    I dont know how the cabinets are damped inside right now but  that would be an easy experiment to do.. As a rule  homogenous MDF > plywood !  Plywood has too much variance in its density and will add unwanted resonances to be sure..
    There are various new materials to experiment with - one such is the   oh heck   am I that old..  I forgot the name =O   I will look for it here   It is a polymer that has extremely good damping qualities for resonances  almost like it is a liquid.. Will post soon as I find it!   It takes up very little space inside a speaker but is  many times more efficient as say fibrefill with some of the more disturbing resonances

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbothane
    a few speaker manufacturers use this stuff now to line their speakers at exorbitant prices mind you.. It is not cheap to buy wholesale but not super crazy either..
    As with other damping materials would not need to line áll the interior surfaces
    www.troelsgravesen.dk/cabinet-damping.htm decent writeup   Replace 'bitumen' with sorbothane..


    Last edited by Roy on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total

    Dogstar

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Dogstar on Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm

    At Axpona 2016 I did listen to a speaker with a cabinet made from billet aluminum. It was a tower and if I remember correctly had 8 inch drivers so it wasn't an extremely narrow speaker. I didn't ask for a prince and sadly I lost the literature so I do not remember the manufacturer's name.

    I think that's going to the other extreme though density is obviously uniform and with the proper damping the characteristics you may think the speaker has are probably negated.

    Right now I'm playing music through my other speakers (not the JBL's) and to be honest there doesnt seem to be much of a difference. Maybe my ears have gone colorblind?
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    Roy

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Roy on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:36 am

    Possibly the Piega Coax 711 ? - bit pricey ^^

    Dogstar

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    Re: Speaker Output Impedance question

    Post by Dogstar on Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:07 am

    Those are the ones I saw and heard!

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