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    Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

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    Dneu2011

    Posts : 8
    Join date : 2018-04-13

    Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Dneu2011 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:40 pm

    Hello and thanks for the add on the forum. This is my first post and I would like some feedback on speakers for the small room I have.

    Current setup:
    Technics 1200mk2 w/ Jelco Sa-750d tonearm and Denon DL-110
    VTA PH-16 phono with SUT
    VTA SP-12 preamp
    VTA 120 with KT120s (just finished it a week ago)
    Yamaha NS-1000m speakers

    Room size and listening distance
    11x12
    7-8 foot from speakers

    Music preferences:
    Folk, Classic Rock, Hard Rock, some Jazz/Blues

    I am considering selling my Yamaha speakers and replacing them with some newer audiophile bookshelf speakers. The Yamaha's sound awesome, but the room is WAY too small for them and the bass response is very weak at normal listening volumes. I am considering the three options below:

    1. Martin Logan Motion 15 or 20
    2. B&W 685 s2
    3. Kef LS50
    4. Suck it up and keep the Yamahas
    5. Other brands???

    Any input is appreciated. I listened to the Martin Logans and B&W's today and was blown away by the Motion 15's for their size.
    I am trying to avoid adding a sub, if possible.
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    corndog71

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    Location : It can get windy here

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by corndog71 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:56 pm

    Some alternative brands to consider...

    Wharfdale
    Monitor Audio
    Martin Logan bookshelf speakers
    Elac
    Magnepan

    Dneu2011

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    Join date : 2018-04-13

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Dneu2011 on Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:27 pm

    What do you think about the Elac Uni-fi ub5?
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    Kentley

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    Age : 66
    Location : Worcester, MA

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Kentley on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:03 am

    Check out Tyler Acoustics. One (two?) man operation in Kentucky. Mind-blowing quality and value.
    http://www.tyleracoustics.com/
    I use the Halo2 with my SP-14/ST-120 combo, in a room about your size. Groovaletto.
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    10-E-C

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    Join date : 2014-02-12
    Age : 64
    Location : upper east tn

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by 10-E-C on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:08 am

    I have a pair of Watkins Gen Four in my bedroom, very well built out of solid wood. Bill Watkins and his son Bill Jr said these are the best speakers they ever built, better than the WE-1s. Good people to deal with in Kingsport TN.
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    Peter W.

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    Join date : 2016-08-07
    Location : Melrose Park, PA

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:26 am

    In no particular order:

    AR3a - with crossover re-build. These are at the extreme of "bookshelf" style speakers, and the family includes the AR11 and AR10pi.

    AR M6 - these are quite modest floor-standing speakers with a surprisingly good 'voice'. The M5 is a slightly smaller version with a bit less bass.

    Magnepan - I keep a pair of MG-IIIas, but in a much larger room. The MGA might suit your application. Note that Maggies have a reputation for weak bass - I have not found it so, but there are those that do. I have seen these with sub-woofers. Note also that Maggies require acute attention to placement.

    In the sleeper department, I have a pair of Dynaco A35s that are quite remarkable in a room about the size of the one you describe, and fed from a 60-watt amp.

    The choice of speaker should not be determined by the type of music preferred. A good speaker remains a good speaker, whatever is fed through it. However, there are those speakers that 'favor' one end of the spectrum or another, Cerwin-Vega coming immediately to mind. If you like ear-bleeding bass, go that way.

    Do not purchase speakers without an audition option. And that audition should be in your venue with your electronics for some reasonable period of time at least one week in duration. As with speakers and in life, marry in haste, repent at leisure.
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    Bob Latino
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    Location : Massachusetts

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Bob Latino on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:21 am

    Kentley wrote:Check out Tyler Acoustics. One (two?) man operation in Kentucky. Mind-blowing quality and value.
    http://www.tyleracoustics.com/
    I use the Halo2 with my SP-14/ST-120 combo, in a room about your size. Groovaletto.

    I agree with Kentley .. We have a few threads on the forum here about Tyler Acoustics speakers. These are higher end speakers that are wholesaled to the public through direct internet sales. Many models use the same Seas and ScanSpeak drivers as speakers costing much more $$$. I have had a pair of their Taylo Reference monitors in my workshop for about 15 years. They had stopped making the Taylo Reference monitor for a period of time but have recently reintroduced them under their "classics" web page.

    Bob

    Dneu2011

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    Join date : 2018-04-13

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Dneu2011 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:27 pm

    Thanks for the feedback. I’m leaning more towards the Bookshelf Halo 3’s or 4’s because of size and prize range. They do have the 2’s used for a $400 less but the size might be too big.

    If anyone has tried either of these, let me know the impressions.

    Tom

    Posts : 183
    Join date : 2011-04-04

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Tom on Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:25 am

    Check out Totem Acoustic. https://totemacoustic.com/en/

    I really like my Forest's at 60W/channel, medium room, especially in the no-sub-needed department.

    - caveat, not powered by an ST-120, yet. Wink
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    kevinmi

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    Join date : 2009-11-17

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by kevinmi on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:04 pm

    Check out some Klipsch speakers. The more expensive ones are still made in Hope, Arkansas. The new Forte III is getting good reviews.

    Dneu2011

    Posts : 8
    Join date : 2018-04-13

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Dneu2011 on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:18 pm

    I had Klipsch Forte II’s and they were also too big for that small room. They sounded good but the room wasn’t big enough for a good bass response.. I’m considering some Totem or Tyler Acoustic bookshelf speakers.
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    kevinmi

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    Join date : 2009-11-17

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by kevinmi on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:53 pm

    Dneu2011 wrote:I had Klipsch Forte II’s and they were also too big for that small room. They sounded good but the room wasn’t big enough for a good bass response.. I’m considering some Totem or Tyler Acoustic bookshelf speakers.
    The Klipsch RB-5 bookshelf speakers got rave reviews, although I've never heard them. I do own the floorstander RF-5 speaker, but I still need a subwoofer for them to sound good in a smaller room.
    But then again, I use a pair of dual 15 inch subwoofers with my Klipschorns, so I guess I like a little bass...


    Last edited by kevinmi on Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added a comment)

    zx

    Posts : 205
    Join date : 2011-08-05

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by zx on Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:44 pm

    Tyler speakers highly recommended
    Taylo Reference monitors......One of the best round driver speakers.. ever, hand made in the US ...I have ever heard...I have a pr here ..with there sands..Playing Now..hehe..
    An I had move to living with ESLs an true full range ribbon speakers.. Apogee, Martin logans new panels in my CLSs....Magnepans...
    Taylo...Driven with tubes like my Stock Dynaco MK3s ST70  are Sand Sunfire 300....
    40 years cant find better...only diff...good luck have fun with tube


    thanks for the site Bob....

    Dneu2011

    Posts : 8
    Join date : 2018-04-13

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Dneu2011 on Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:38 pm

    I emailed Tyler yesterday and he responded today. I had asked him if he recommended the Halo 3 or 4’s for my room and setup and he offered me a set of 3’s for $975 after shipping. That’s $225 off his original price. My only concern is the speaker design. It’s a 2 way speaker featuring a 1 inch tweeter with a 12 inch woofer. Should I have reason for concern being without a mid range? Has anyone heard these?

    Thanks.
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    Peter W.

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    Location : Melrose Park, PA

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Peter W. on Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:52 pm

    Dneu2011 wrote:I emailed Tyler yesterday and he responded today. I had asked him if he recommended the Halo 3 or 4’s for my room and setup and he offered me a set of 3’s for $975 after shipping. That’s $225 off his original price. My only concern is the speaker design. It’s a 2 way speaker featuring a 1 inch tweeter with a 12 inch woofer. Should I have reason for concern being without a mid range? Has anyone heard these?

    Thanks.

    The short answer is no.

    Advent did this well. The entire philosophy of the "Large Advent" is based on this.
    Dynaco (SEAS) did this well.
    AR did this well, albeit on a limited scale.
    ADS did this well.

    A decent high-compliance woofer will reach high enough, and a well-designed liquid-cooled 1" dome tweeter will reach low enough to do the job in a room of reasonable size. This does add to the cost of the original drivers, but eliminates the mid-range (cost) and simplifies the crossover (cost).

    That would be the least of my concerns in this search.
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    corndog71

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    Join date : 2013-03-19
    Location : It can get windy here

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by corndog71 on Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:02 pm

    That's a good price for Tylers. I'd jump on those.

    If you decide to add a sub then I recommend these. http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html They are unbeatable for the money.

    jasn54

    Posts : 39
    Join date : 2015-04-13

    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by jasn54 on Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:24 pm

    You would do yourself a favor to peruse the numerous, extremely positive reviews for the Elac Uni-Fi UB5 standmounts.  Designed by Andrew Jones (once with KEF), these concentric-driver speakers punch way above their bargain price of $450/pair.

    I have the UF5 towers and they play very nicely with my ST120.  Lots of interweb drama about their efficiency, but I think it's overplayed.

    Google UB5 vs LS50 and you will see they perform quite well, especially for the price.

    Good luck.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Bookshelf/floor stander speaker recommendations for VTA 120

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:47 pm

    https://www.elac.com/product/ub5/  

    SPECIFICATIONS
    Speaker type: 3-way, bass reflex
    Tweeter: 1 x 1-inch soft dome, concentrically mounted
    Midrange: 1 x 4-inch aluminum cone
    Woofer: 1 x 5.25-inch aluminum cone
    Crossover frequency: 270 / 2,700 Hz
    Frequency response: 46 to 25,000 Hz
    Sensitivity: 85 dB at 2.83 v/1m
    Recommended amplifier power: 40 to 140 wpc
    Peak power handling: 140 wpc
    Nominal impedance: 4 Ω; minimum 3.4 Ω

    As compared to:

    http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/original_models_1954-1974/original_models_brochures/acoustic_research_loudspeak.pdf    

    Minor rant warning here on speaker specifications:

    a) Frequency range descriptives are worthless without further parameters. The AR4x as noted above, reaches down to 20 hz... at -20dB. At a much more reasonable -5 dB, it reaches to 50 hz. Not so much!  
    b) It would be good to see curves. They tell a story that mere numbers cannot convey. And, as manufacturers absolutely for-sure develop and have such curves, what are they hiding by not showing them? Sitting where I am, I would be willing to bet a dozen US $$ to a single Krispy Kreme that the given Elac spec is at -10 dB. Suggesting (at the typical 45-degree decay) that the actual Elac spec is closer to 62 hz at -5 dB. Not even good enough for 60-hz Hum.
    c) On sensitivity - 85 dB at 1 watt at 1 meter is not very efficient. Not bad, but not very efficient. Against a 120, however, they should be fine.

    Getting back to Physics - vibrating air is a matter of surface area, power available and room size, using very simple Newtonian Physics. The larger the woofers, the more surface-area in use (and how it is deployed), and the more power available, the wider the frequency range possible.

    This leads back to two things, writing entirely for myself.

    First, my fascination with legacy speakers. In terms of bang-for-the-buck, they are unequaled by modern offerings at any price.
    But, if legacy speakers are not a possibility, chasing after anemic little speakers with anemic little woofers is not going to lead to a happy result, no matter the cost.

    Tailing it out into a bit of philosophy, in bullet points:

    - The weakest points in any system are the transducers. Speakers, cartridges and anything that changes electrical energy into vibrations, or the other way around.
    - Those things that are well-and-truly established science are the electronics. There have been no quantum-changes in tube audio technology since about 1960, or so. Things have gotten better, and better made (in some cases), but not really different. And none in solid-state audio technology since about 1980, or so. Same reasons.
    - Making the MAIN SPEAKERS in any system the be-all/end-all of choices. A bad choice here is quite literally a complete waste of time and money and to be avoided at all costs. I operate on the 5/8, 1/8, 1/4 level.

    5/8 of any efforts, which include time, money, and trouble as equal values are to be spent on the speakers.
    1/8 of same is to be spent on the core electronics - tuners are NOT part of core electronics, nor are CD players, cassette tape players, RtR players, or DACs.
    1/4 of same is to be spent on means to reproduce vinyl, if so-desired, split between the TT and the Cartridge.

    For my main system, I keep Magnepan Speakers that by the CPI are worth ~$10,000 today.
    Driven by an am/pre system worth  ~$2,000 (Revox - Citation)
    From a TT/Cartridge combination worth ~$3,000 (Rabco - Ortophon)
    CD/Cassette/RtR (which are all there) are not counted - nor would a DAC or similar.

    Close enough.

    I keep two (2) Dynaco tube systems elsewhere in the house - thereby justifying my otherwise dubious presence here.

    Marry in haste, repent at leisure. Speakers are the single most important, least forgiving, most variable part of any audio system. DO NOT spend any kind of real money on something you cannot hear, and in your venue with your source and your electronics.  And there is no 'fixing' a bad fit by adding a sub-woofer, or treating a room or adding a fancy crossover, or an equalizer. A bad fit will be and remain so forever and ever, AMEN!

    Full Stop.

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