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    Silver Wire Interconnects

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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:42 pm

    ive seen ALOT of your posts on this and other forums.(audiokharma i think as well), i think your humble enough to still remain teachable,and very knowledgeable. that being said. you are a great asset, BTW,i think alot of people have no idea about skin effect,or holes in dope regions. lol sounds like drug addict rhetoric to many.
    Id like to see the guy in that posts test with the same style wire in copper(strand count,gauge of strand) length,and wire insulation to match the silver. just for knowing. ill never use silver anyway,waste of money. but information gained is information applied.
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    erhard-audio

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    Location : SW Coast OR

    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by erhard-audio on Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:07 pm

    Peter W. wrote:
    wildiowa wrote:This may have been debated before...but would such upgrades only be viable if it were incorporated all through the electrical chain? Like using silver all the way from the wall outlet throughout the amp and right to the speakers themselves? Or do incremental and isolated uses change the sound enough to be viable or detectable? Like using a premium coffee but still running it through a funky dirty coffee maker? Not sure that's a good analogy, but hope you get the gist of my question...

    Mpffffff.... RANT WARNING (and, there are Dynaco tube items involved):

    A)  Our power comes from the PMJ and we pay a very tiny, and decreasing, premium for it to be directed to/from the Iberdrola Wind Farm in Columbia County, PA. It is brought to us via Aluminum & Steel cable at ~138 KV after being inverted and stepped up at the farm. Overall, about 100 miles. At the sub-station about 1 mile from us, it is dropped to 13,200 V for transmission via overhead lines to a pole-mounted transformer about 100 yards from the house, and then via triplex to the SE cable (200A) at the house. 100% via aluminum conductors.

    Thence to the electrical panel, via a 200A main breaker to a 20A distribution breaker via 12-gauge wire to the wall-plate - hospital-grade 20A device. That comes to One Inversion, Three transformations, Four switches, two breakers and two fuses in all - before it even sees the receptacle.

    Please do not try to convince me that anything after all this is going to make one whit of difference - assuming that the line-cord is, at least, adequate for the load.

    B) Friction connections: All friction connections are suspect, 100% of the time - yet they are sadly neglected for the most part. We are all familiar with tube sockets - how many of us are as aware of our RCA jacks and plugs? How many of use use Banana Jacks and plugs in "friction-only" mode? Often carrying many watts. Putting fancy cables onto a Banana Jack in friction-only mode is much like putting a 4" pipe on a 1/2" valve.

    C) Clamped Connections: They also heat/cool/heat/cool/expand/contract/expand/contract. It really pays to clean and remake them every so often - more-so in a house full of cats, dogs and occasional grandchildren and grand-puppies.

    D) Fact & Theory: the amount of current any given conductor can carry without losses is a function of surface-area, general conductivity, temperature, length and conductor purity. All of which can be calculated. There are some basic things - stranded by weight is a better conductor than solid-by-weight. Conductors, within broad limits cannot be too big, but can be too small. Most currents running around in audio components are far 'less' than the conductor limits they are running within. Keep in mind that the windings in that Audio Output Transformer are often as fine as 30 gauge, more typically around 22 gauge. And all your B+ and all your signal goes through that wire. So, the brute fact of the matter, and the physics, and that-which-can-(and may)-be-measured is a function of conductor material, conductor purity, surface area, temperature and length. Nothing Else. A rusty coat hanger will do just fine as speaker wire if the connections are sufficiently tight and the distance is sufficiently short. Physics. Whereas "Skin Effect" as formally described is not a factor at audio frequencies, the skin of whatever conductor in use does all the 'work' - and why it is that stranded wire is a better conductor than solid wire, all other things being equal.  

    We have five active stereo systems at home, and 1.5 at our summer house (we use a Dynaco SCA-80 into AR speakers for the CD Player sound). All of them use conventional cables, patch-cords and various other conductors but for the Main System that uses a set of Monster Cable speaker wires obtained at a garage sale, and monster-cable patch-cords (same source) for the phono input. Of all this, Dynaco is involved in three of them, of those three, two are committed to Dynaco. Of the two that are committed, one is also committed to tubes, the other involves them. If one wants to understand the difference, consider Ham and Eggs. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed. I would posit that I spend more time cleaning and tightening connections than rolling tubes by a pretty large margin. Y'all try it sometime on your main stereo - end-to-end. Please report the differences, if any. Note that this is, in some cases, a hood-up operation, especially as it relates to RCA jacks.

    finally some common sense, thank you!
    Having worked in recording studios, both analog and digital, playing in a band and generally being around audio for the better part of five decades, I have seen and heard more than one can shake a stick at.
    We've tried all kinds of materials, precious metals, brands and doo-dats. In the end, always came back to good old copper and good quality connectors AND keeping those connections clean, tight, properly shielded and as short as practicably possible. And this applies both to balanced and unbalanced signals. Nothing else, no matter what is claimed by the manufacturers or seller, has made any improvements to the end results, period.
    But, each to their own. Dare I say in a way it is a bit like religion. If one passionately believes in that it makes a difference for them, I guess in the end that is really all that counts. Just a shame that in some instances, good money is flushed down the toilet!
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    corndog71

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by corndog71 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm

    erhard-audio wrote:

    Just a shame that in some instances, good money is flushed down the toilet!

    People give me pretty funny looks when they find out my stereo cost me around $9K (Most of it built from kits too!) They seem more than content with their bluetooth speakers or even just listening to music on their phone.

    It's just like when I find out how much someone shells out for owning a boat or collecting fancy watches. Or, you know, kids. affraid

    Everybody got their something.

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    deepee99

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    I would suggest . . .

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:05 pm

    Taking someone like Clear Day Cables up on their 30-day trial period for silver cables. That's a freebie that will make a believer or a non-believer out of you.

    Tom

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Tom on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:27 am

    "ive seen ALOT"


    I haven't.  Only the pictures.



    It makes me sad.



    For the record,

    I like the rants, ALOT.

    cheers
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    cci1492

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by cci1492 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:26 pm

    My thoughts were that it shouldn't make a difference using quality parts vs using what I call the insane line. But recently after thinking about it and watching many of Paul McGowan's videos (don't judge!), I think in a crazy system like he uses with those IRS $150,000 (IRS comes after you if you buy a pair) speakers there must be a difference in sound between any cable you use.
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    sKiZo

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by sKiZo on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 pm

    I'm sold ...

    How much for 46 pairs of 3 foot RCAs? What a Face
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    deepee99

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by deepee99 on Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:48 pm

    sKiZo wrote:I'm sold ...
    How much for 46 pairs of 3 foot RCAs?  What a Face
    Wire nuts included?
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    Kentley

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Kentley on Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:04 pm

    The wire nuts are already installed in your cranium. Flush, in the rear; contiguous with your cerebellum. It takes two mirrors
    Report back when the surgery is complete, And good luck.

    Johnny2Bad

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Johnny2Bad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:51 am

    I think the OP made good choices if his goal was to evaluate silver interconnects. Not only did he use appropriate materials he didn't spend an arm and a leg, or at least not more than necessary, given the criteria he was looking to discover.

    The points about gas-tight connections and corrosion are well made and reasonable (most city air has enough airborne contaminants to degrade connections over time). No cable evaluation should take place without pulling your baseline interconnects and insuring they are in appropriate condition, and re-listening to that baseline configuration to establish the start point.

    A change is not necessarily an improvement. It may be merely different. Also one should be wary of expectation bias (which may be for expecting a change, or may be against one) and be sure to return to the base configuration often enough to be sure of your conclusions.

    Layout is important, and with proper layout many cable issues can be resolved at no cost. Having said that, sometimes that isn't enough.

    Cable is susceptible to both transmission and interference issues. Both must be addressed for a proper interconnection. With regard to interference, no two systems can be identical, and even a few inches can matter.

    Sometimes things that shouldn't matter, do, and sometimes things that don't matter, will.

    With regard to Pro Audio, 99% of the time adequate cable and proper routing means no problems. It's just annoying for that 1% of the time when the stage is live and I hear some taxi driver's call to base, and it's my job to hunt it down. (For some reason, taxis don't hover around the venue in the afternoon during sound check when no-one is going to or coming from anywhere).

    Also, although Pro Audio vs Consumer reproduction has it's analogies and comparisons, they are two different realms and we should be wary of taking it too far. Live performances are not known particularly for extreme fidelity. Studio performances, mixing, processing, mastering are all part of creation of a product. It doesn't matter which amp or cable they use in the mixing room anymore than it matters whether they use a Concert Grand or a Toy Piano to create a sound, as long as that sound is what they creatively seek. There is a hard and solid line between making the product and reproducing that product and it's drawn right at the shipping master. We're interested in what happens after it ships, not before.





    Last edited by Johnny2Bad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:43 am; edited 5 times in total

    Johnny2Bad

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Johnny2Bad on Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:05 am

    wildiowa wrote:This may have been debated before...but would such upgrades only be viable if it were incorporated all through the electrical chain? Like using silver all the way from the wall outlet throughout the amp and right to the speakers themselves? Or do incremental and isolated uses change the sound enough to be viable or detectable? Like using a premium coffee but still running it through a funky dirty coffee maker? Not sure that's a good analogy, but hope you get the gist of my question...

    If you notice a significant (audible = significant) difference by replacing a single cable only, I would suggest there is something wrong that should be addressed before going further. Either there is corrosion on contacts (changing a cable might clean that up enough to make an audible change) or a qualitative issue with the original.

    With any reasonably well assembled system and adequate quality cable, (and I appreciate an Engineer's perspective who suggested this analogy) it's like looking through a series of panes of glass. If one is cleaned up and the remaining are dirty, you shouldn't see much, and maybe no, difference in clarity. You need to clean them all.

    So any cable evaluation should start with insuring the base configuration is in proper condition, clean connectors, routed properly, before swapping cable (singly or in a set). Then what would be effectively your single or set (as the case may be) of "dirty pane(s) of glass" might reveal something useful. Or not.

    The same principle would apply if you were evaluating a different component, etc. Insure the system is in good condition in every respect before coming to any conclusion.
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    CletusB

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by CletusB on Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:54 am

    But I love the sound of my "El Cheapo" interconnects  and my copper electrical wire speaker connections. Evil or Very Mad
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    billinrio

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by billinrio on Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:42 am

    [/quote]

    Mpffffff.... RANT WARNING (and, there are Dynaco tube items involved):
    ........................................................................................[/quote]

    All excellent points, worth pondering.
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    WireNut

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by WireNut on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:31 am

    I have a lot of experience with cables having a business that makes them and one of my best friends is the owner of Anti-Cables. Pure silver cables are bright- period. If you have a tube amp with Russian caps (which lack highs) silver might just do the trick to give you a balanced result. I have copper foil caps and use silver/gold wire, that works for me. The gold content tames the sibalance that you get with some amp/speaker combos.
    Copper is usually the most balanced, so if you lack one end or another you can try gold connectors to tame high end sizzle, or silver to recover some of the highs you may be lacking.
    That is my experience making hundreds of high end cables.

    andyo

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by andyo on Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:58 pm

    WireNut wrote:I have a lot of experience with cables having a business that makes them and one of my best friends is the owner of Anti-Cables. Pure silver cables are bright- period. If you have a tube amp with Russian caps (which lack highs) silver might just do the trick to give you a balanced result. I have copper foil caps and use silver/gold wire, that works for me. The gold content tames the sibalance that you get with some amp/speaker combos.
    Copper is usually the most balanced, so if you lack one end or another you can try gold connectors to tame high end sizzle, or silver to recover some of the highs you may be lacking.
    That is my experience making hundreds of high end cables.

    That's interesting. What can you say about silver-plated copper wire? Wouldn't copper balance silver?
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    WireNut

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by WireNut on Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:12 pm

    I only use mil spec silver coated copper, it should be cryo treated to calm it down a little... otherwise it is really brassy- with cryo treatment is is only pretty brassy . The exception is HDMI where it gives a very good picture for not a lot of moola. I don't want to pi$$ in anyone's porridge, but silver coated copper is a cost saver and the folks that sell it try to tell you that it sounds as good as solid silver or better than just copper, neither is true... even if cryo treated.
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    pedrocols

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by pedrocols on Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:14 pm

    WireNut wrote:I only use mil spec silver coated copper, it should be cryo treated to calm it down a little... otherwise it is really brassy- with cryo treatment is is only pretty brassy . The exception is HDMI where it gives a very good picture for not a lot of moola.  I don't want to pi$$ in anyone's porridge, but silver coated copper is a cost saver and the folks that sell it try to tell you that it sounds as good as solid silver or better than just copper, neither is true... even if cryo treated.
    My experience with Anticables was not very pleasant! But then again I can't hear what you hear and vice-versa.
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    deepee99

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    I've said it before but . . .

    Post by deepee99 on Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:31 pm

    . . . Blue Jeans Cables out of Seattle delivers by far the best bang for the buck. Just Belden copper, nuttin' fancy except their terminations are world-class.
    I still use BJC for my digital connexions, and Clear Day silver cables for the analogue paths.
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    WireNut

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by WireNut on Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:44 pm

    Anti-Cables had a big bad batch of wire that was not up to the quality they are famous for. The mfgr sent hard, quickly extruded copper. They found the problem and fixed it with soft, slow extruded copper, it sounds great.
    You probably got some of the other copper.
    Yes, Blue Jeans is really great stuff, I have it in my walls for home theater. I got it before I bought my company. Kudos to those guys! You should hear their wire cryo treated. I also like the Belden Crump power wire, very tasty!
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    sKiZo

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by sKiZo on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:43 pm

    Belden oxy free here for in wall wiring ... 16 gauge, twisted pairs with drain and foil jacket, round case for fishing ... nice combo.

    For interconnects, I use the mid range Mogami premade pairs in various lengths, keeping them as short as possible. No complaints there.

    PS ... I truly despise the Monoprice interconnects. Not sure which is worse, the thick inflexible cable they use, or the tight and brittle plug ends that are impossible to install without breaking at least one tab OR worse, the jack you're trying to pound one in to. Basically a cheapskate here, but I tossed a bunch still in the factory bags. Would have felt guilty giving them away except maybe to my worst enemy - even then I'd have second thoughts as no one deserves that sort of abuse.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by deepee99 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:18 am

    I have a spare pair of Clear Day silver RCA cables, one meter, be happy to lend them out. ideally, they'd go from the CD player to the pre-amp, or from the pre- to the power amp. Just promise to send 'em back. From reading this thread, it's obvious to me that these are application-specific. You'll love 'em or hate 'em.
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    crkohut

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by crkohut on Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:00 pm

    I think some people may be "super hearers" and then perhaps a change from a decent interconnect to another decent interconnect can be heard. For me just good stuff sounds great and I don't think I would ever hear the difference from copper to silver.

    I think if I had a $500,000.00 system I most likely would buy very expensive interconnects to hook it all up. I'm sure I would brag about how great it all sounded.

    Still not a believer in the "audiophoolery" that exists out there. Not sure what to think of the thread starters silver interconnect, but hey if it sounds better, it sounds better...LOL
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:44 pm

    i might be able to eat the fact that silver wire "maaay" have a smidge of crisper / higher frequency, IF freq and metal have a relationship, (as they DO in computer circuits "NO DOUBT" about that)! then good ol copper has the bass,punch,and drive that really comes home. now if one had good copper wire with silver coated strands mixed.. .oh say...70/30% or so "on both the + and - leads with screw spades on one end,that have copper on one side,and silver on the other, then on the other end of the cable banana leads/ silver coated, yet with a copper set screw,and if you wore off the silver coat on 2 of the 3 sides of the banana insert. well then you'll have a fair balance of silver AND copper(more copper) i would think that might be ideal...
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    deepee99

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by deepee99 on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:51 am

    crkohut,
    I'm about 99 percent with you. Bragging rights for your $40k Audioquest cables that in the end don't sound any better than $40 Blue Jeans is kinda spendy. OTOH, is there an audible difference between silver and copper? I think so, but again, so much of the listening experience is subjective. Part of the art of the fun.
    I like dmgazz's idea and let me push it further. Bi-wire, and use one pair copper and one pair silver for the speaker ledes, maybe get the best of both worlds.

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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:19 am

    YES! bi-wire. 1 set of each type, you can intertwine the ends yourself! much easier to obtain Wink. each set in 18 or 20 awg.

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