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    Silver Wire Interconnects

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    corndog71

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by corndog71 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:22 am

    I keep thinking about something Peter W wrote: "Please do not try to convince me that anything after all this is going to make one whit of difference".

    Not very open-minded if you ask me.

    I may not believe in gods but I'm still open to new evidence.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:42 am

    corndog71 wrote:I keep thinking about something Peter W wrote:  "Please do not try to convince me that anything after all this is going to make one whit of difference".

    Not very open-minded if you ask me.

    I may not believe in gods but I'm still open to new evidence.

    I also cited the definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. However many iterations of a couple of meters of AC power cable are tried, the results will be the same - and those largely determined by the on-board power-supply of the item in question. Sure, some situation will require power-conditioning, and as I work in a hospital setting, and we have equipment like gene-sequencers running around, power-quality is a HUGE concern amongst the researchers. But that sequencer will have a conventional 4-wire SJOOW line cord on it.

    But in your ST-XX or XXX, that power, once past the line cord, runs through the transformer, is magnetically altered, rectified, filtered and delivered, mostly through 20-gauge (or less) copper and perhaps various forms of plating on that copper. And so forth.

    Beliefs are touching and to be respected. Much as there are those who believe that the earth is flat, and call anyone who will not consider it close-minded. I may respect their belief(s), but I am not moved to test them.
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    corndog71

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by corndog71 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:13 am

    Peter W. wrote:
    I also cited the definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. However many iterations of a couple of meters of AC power cable are tried, the results will be the same - and those largely determined by the on-board power-supply of the item in question. Sure, some situation will require power-conditioning, and as I work in a hospital setting, and we have equipment like gene-sequencers running around, power-quality is a HUGE concern amongst the researchers. But that sequencer will have a conventional 4-wire SJOOW line cord on it.

    But in your ST-XX or XXX, that power, once past the line cord, runs through the transformer, is magnetically altered, rectified, filtered and delivered, mostly through 20-gauge (or less) copper and perhaps various forms of plating on that copper. And so forth.

    Beliefs are touching and to be respected. Much as there are those who believe that the earth is flat, and call anyone who will not consider it close-minded. I may respect their belief(s), but I am not moved to test them.

    To be fair I haven't heard differences in power cords. I have heard them in speaker cables, interconnects, capacitors and tubes.
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:23 am

    id like to see results from this, connecting direct to the amp speaker out terminals, then to the end of 20ft 16awg stranded stiff copper wires. and compare, if there's no difference, well. need not look farther.
    a rather deep test
    http://www.turneraudio.com.au/amplifier-frequency-tests.html
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:36 am

    this i can get in line with, it makes sense. but of course, its length/resistance- speaker, combined as an attenuating circuit. not so much material related.

    https://ohmspeaker.com/news/does-speaker-wire-affect-the-sound/
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:03 pm

    dmagazz wrote:id like to see results from this, connecting direct to the amp speaker out terminals, then to the end of 20ft 16awg stranded stiff copper wires. and compare, if there's no difference, well. need not look farther.
    a rather deep test
    http://www.turneraudio.com.au/amplifier-frequency-tests.html

    Patrick Turner is an Audio Curmudgeon much respected and for many years.

    He winds his own transformers, takes on all sorts of esoteric projects, and has, perhaps, one of the best write-ups on the OEM ST-70 I have seen.

    http://www.turneraudio.com.au/dynacost70mods.html
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:34 pm

    Patrick Turner is an Audio Curmudgeon much respected and for many years.

    quite a write up indeed! genius!!
    i just read the dynaco inside story too.

    http://dynaco.com/inside-story
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:16 pm

    dmagazz wrote:this i can get in line with, it makes sense. but of course, its length/resistance- speaker, combined as an attenuating circuit. not so much material related.

    https://ohmspeaker.com/news/does-speaker-wire-affect-the-sound/

    OK, I'll bite.

    There are (at least) five things wrong with this test. Any one of which invalidates the results, but (as must be admitted) does not necessarily invalidate the premise.

    How many of those (and probably more) can you figure?
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:43 pm

    a) Amp type not specified. Tubes will have a very different effect than solid-state amps (current vs. voltage). But given the source, I conclude that the amp is probably solid-state - as that *will* exacerbate the effects described.
    b) The interaction between the cables and the speakers is altering the signal.
    c) An artificial condition within the wire is correcting a defect within the speaker. Adding a 'resistor' in fatter wire accomplished the same end.
    d) Fallacy of leaping to conclusions: At the extremes, poor quality speaker wire may interact with poorly designed speakers to produce a result that is momentarily more pleasing than without the added resistance.
    e) Might also be..... First rule of testing: Only one variable at a time. Fallacy of false premises.

    There are more. But:

    OK, the premise is good, and the results DO prove it. However, what is actually proven is useless as it should have no relevance in a universe of well designed equipment used with understanding and attention to detail. That one  may commit a further fallacy (reasoning from the specific to the general) is really more of a user issue - and does fall back to beliefs and received wisdom.

    Comes down to:

    Speaker Wire CAN make a difference is not the same as Speaker Wire WILL make a difference, and not hardly the same as Speaker Wire MUST make a difference.
    We must assume (as noted, dangerous) that all of us here are starting with good quality items made with good quality materials, that are both designed for and appropriate to the use at hand.
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:23 pm

    holy crap. i just posted a answer to ya, and its gone! Surprised
    omg, i cant write it all over,lol
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:37 pm

    haaa. i retrieved it.
    sorry pete. you posted during my typing the post and i guess it held up my post because i didnt notice to decide to change it or not after i sent it.

    so. after seeing yours/much more articulate!!
    well. peter. being you make me tear it apart. lol here we go

    1-blind testing i think is subject to failure given time away from sound,and how long the interaction was from one to the other sample.
    2-sighted evaluation requires proof when mentioned!
    3-their comparing wire with vented speakers in a circuit,not wire by itself.
    4- did the tests have the same speakers, in the same room,in the same spot, same volume, same tone settings!! probably not!
    5- not comparing a fixed type / length of wire with another,
    6- many results (For a while in England, there was a major discussion) are "claimed" by subjects. subjective and uncertain.some some of the results are unsubstantial.
    7- claims seem to point to a loss of conductivity changing the sound output for the better, but there is a LOSS in signal, so. NO,choking the output circuit is not better!
    8- comparison copper/silver tinned,no other conductors tested.
    9-bios/marketing their product.

    however - the improved wire was 12 gauge, (at least 2 sizes bigger than the wire tested, taking resistance out of the factor. to me, proving its more a signal strength at the end of the wire factor that makes the wire better.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:03 pm

    Pretty much, yes.

    Lots of conflict between the subjective and the objective - which I tried to avoid as the door then opens to much more contentious discussions. We are trying to avoid blood on the floor.
    Blind testing needs to be continuous, and/or randomized sufficiently to overcome situational differences. If, on day one, a listener has an ear-ache, results may differ than when the ears are clear.  Ear-aches, for example, will favor brighter sounds. And so forth.

    Sighted tests are fraught with problems - not the least of which is volume control. For the short term, louder speakers will _ALWAYS_ sound better than softer speakers - any other defects notwithstanding.  Until listener fatigue sets in.

    But, however many the defects, the first premise, i.e. "Speaker wire *Can* make a difference", is proven. That it *Will* is implied by (a single) example. But that it *Must* (AKA: will always) is entirely unproven. And that it *May* make a difference is a given - but only proven by extreme example.

    And this is the trap. And the trap-door by which the unscrupulous exploit the uneducated. Do you know the example of "Forcing" a card?

    Have someone shuffle a standard deck of cards. Have that person pick out any card from it. You see it, the person does not. Tell the person that you will now 'force' them to pick that card.  Let's say it is the 2 of Diamonds. From here a matter of Q and A

    Q Pick any two suits      A Clubs and Spades.
    Q That leaves you with diamonds and Hearts. Pick one of those.    A Hearts
    Q That leaves you with diamonds. Pick any four Diamonds       A  5,6,J,K
    Q That leaves you with.....   You get the picture.

    Note that most of the products discussed herein, vintage and current, require little by way of salesmanship, and even less hype. But there is a great deal wrong with an industry that sells snake oil and esoterica using the same sort of language used to describe Wine, Caviar and Truffles. And, comes to it, there is but only so much that will fit inside any given box, and whether the wire involved is rolled on the thighs of virgins on Walpurgisnacht, or comes out of a mill in New Jersey - it is still wire.
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:33 pm

    hahahaaa/ indeed
    length needs or output power will facilitate the need for heavier "more conductive" wire,
    not a cabinet being vented,or a speaker being to fat sounding.
    if the cabinet sounds like crap,it don't belong, the crappy speaker either.
    there's no sense in altering good design(the correct wire per gauge per output power and load res range) to make a fart sound like a trombone. lol, thats just silly.


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