LOMC Cartridges

Had some talk with DeePee on this but compiling a list of LOMC's for an upgrade to my RP3. Thus far:

Ortofon -- Rondo Blue, Rondo Red, Vivo Blue / Red, Quintet Dlue
Dynevector - 10X5
Sumiko Bluepoint
Denon -- DL-103R
Grado -- Statement Platinum 1 and Sonata
Zu Audio - Modified DL-103R at a nice price
HOMC option is Ortfon MC-3 Turbo

Who has experience with what??

Brap wrote:Had some talk with DeePee on this but compiling a list of LOMC's for an upgrade to my RP3.  Thus far:

Ortofon -- Rondo Blue, Rondo Red, Vivo Blue / Red, Quintet Dlue
Dynevector  - 10X5
Sumiko Bluepoint
Denon --  DL-103R
Grado --  Statement Platinum 1 and Sonata
Zu Audio - Modified DL-103R at a nice price
HOMC option is Ortfon MC-3 Turbo

Who has experience with what??

This is an odd mix. The Blue Point, 10x5, and Grado are not low output moving coil cartridges. The Blue Point is long out of production, maybe you meant rev2 or evoIII? The Grados are moving iron cartridges that come in high or medium output versions.

What are you running now? What is driving your desire to upgrade?

I'm basically intrigued with the MC concept and have been told imaging and soundstage is improved. I am running a Rega RP3 with an Elyss II cart now. Appreciate your recommendations

The sumiko blue point special evoIII is available as a low output and is in production. Limiting myself to $500 for a cartridge, I would look at it
as well as the audio technica at33ev and at33ptg and denon dl304, all of which can be bought for under $500 on ebay. I have used the seller 2juki
on ebay. The denon dl103r is widely praised but I have one, and it has woolly bass, colored midrange, and mistracks on loud passages.
As far as ortofons go, I have had two mc30 super cartridges, (no longer in production), but they can still be bought on ebay from william thakker
for $890, and if I had that laying around I'd buy one. Neutral, dimensional, tracks superbly.

Thanks Ramon. I see the Blue point (HO) for $388 and a Denon DL-103R for $225. Decisions, decisions between LO and HO.

Don't get the blue point! Get the blue point special evoIII. It comes in low or high output and is, I am told, a much better cart.
Plus, it is way sexy looking with a naked body, (no body resonances to color the sound).

Both the denon 103 and 103r have extremely low compliance and a spherical stylus with a profile much too large to retrieve low level or high frequency
information well.

Thanks -- great advise. Talking to a few folks, leaning towards Ortofon now.

I would agree that the stylus is extremely important. If the stylus can't extract the musical information from the groove,
it's not going to matter if the generator is moving coil, moving magnet, or other. I have half a dozen cartridges, the two that sound by far the best
have the best stylus and cantilever.

Thanks and I agree. Leaning more towards the Ortofon Quintet Bronze or Black now.

The Black has the same type stylus and cantilever as my favorite cartridge, so it would get my vote.
That being said, I don't have a lot of experience with MC carts, I'm a MM guy, because of budget restraints.
I keep looking at that reel to reel, the best reproduction I ever heard was from R-R!

Thanks. thinking about trading in some speakers and add some $$$ for the Black. Really been enjoying recording on my RTR form Concord, MTI and other direct to disc LP's. Sound is great. Chet Baker, Monty Alexander, etc. Found some real nice ATR tape too at a decent price and starting to build up a nice collection. May need to re-record when I get the new cart though. Gee-- more time in the basement, too bad

Here's something to consider: http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATOC9III.html

The price is sure right. Maybe worth reading the reviews on it at least.

I can't recommend it, I have never heard one. I do have the top-of-the line AT MM cart, I do
really enjoy it. It's the best tracker I have, and seems to pull more information from the groove than any of my other carts.

Thanks much -- nice price! Will look for reviews.

Brap, et. al,
A consideration with the Ortofon 2M is you can buy at the bottom and work your way up. There are three iterations, using the same cart but different and interchangeable needles. So you just need to buy the one cart, then when the lottery ticket kicks in, upgrade the 2M bronze to the 2M black by just changing the stylus. Output is 3-5 mV so no need for a high-gain phono preamp. Takes one more circuit out of the loop.
Maybe this is picking pepper out of the rat-shite, but I can't hear the difference between MM and MC carts at this price point.
I would also suggest a conversation with Kevin at KAB Electro Acoustics
https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Cheerio,
d

thanks D -- will contact Kevin. Trying to work a deal now with the local Hi-fi shop. Have a pair of Klipsch Fortes that I no longer need and have this Elyss II on the RP3 now. Seeing what they could do for me as a trade for a LOMC. I just like the concept of it and surely is an upgrade. Stay tuned

One thing to keep in mind is that the simpler the stylus geometry the simpler the setup will be. Sophisticated stylus geometries work very well when they are manufactured and set up correctly.

There is a reason why there are plenty of spherical, conical, and elliptical styli out there... I have some simple and some complex shaped styli and enjoy them all for what they do well.

If your Rega has a stock RB-30* arm you may find yourself feeling limited (frustrated) by the lack of adjustments if you go with a line contact or similar geometry. In the past Tiefenbrun (Linn) and Gandy (Rega) have been largely dismissive when it comes to stylus rake angle, vertical tracking angle, etc.

Great feedback and thanks. Yes, there would be some precise shimming involved to get the most out of the Black (shibata) versus some, not as much with the Bronze. Appreciate the input.

Presently I use Denon Dl103r + Bobs Device Cinemag SUT + DIY battery powered Le Pacific Phono Pre with modded P3-24
Based on my experience want to share some notes;
1) evaluating cartridge alone will not be enough to decide that thé result will be perfect, phono pre and tonearm specs are very important. Meanings if somebody tells Denon DL103R is the best do not mean you like aswell need to be taken into account rest of the components.
2) There are some additional evaluation on cartridge weight. I see you will use new cartridge with RP3 Considering you have rega arm. REGA arms are low mass arms, you need to add additional weight together for example DL103R. Nearly 3 gr.
3) on the chain... cartridge output impedance - SUT input impedance (if exist) - SUT amplifying factor (output impedance) - Phono Pre input impedance (generally 47kohm) is very very important then the relation between pre-power-speaker because we deal with a very low voltage open för distortion.
4) besides dl103r İ used elys, grado, in the past. Grado's are romantic but you have to give some other nuances of dynamic etc. But it Depend on taste grado shall be your perfect cartridge if you like romantic sound.

Me myself İ reached my Nirvana with as told dl103r+Bobs Device SUT+ lepacific pre overall price/peformance match.

(There is a never ending debate on SUT, is good or not, like does cable makes difference, digital or analog and others. Just an additional note)

cartridge - arm matching
cartridge tonearm matching 2

Hey Brap,
If you decide, against my sage advice on a low-output cart, Roy has a high-gain version of the PH-16, not sure if that option's available on his other preamps, but eliminates the need for an SUT. The low-gain -16 for my high-output Ortofon carts, which is the one I have, is one sweet-sounding unit if built right, not a whisper of noise, hum or exaggeration.
One bored Sunday I'm gonna tear the VPI apart and stick the Orto 2M in there and mess with stylus changes. Film at 11.
Cheerio
-d-

You guys rock!. Thanks for all the feedback. I spoke to Ortofon and they state the match between my RP3 arm and the quintet bronze is pretty basic. Need a few shims and that's it. However, with the Shibata on the black quintet, it is a bit more precise. Likened it to taking pictures with an I-phone and a Nikon D-90. You can take pictures with both but to get the best, setting things up properly yield the best results. My local Hi-Fi shop where I got the RP3 would do this but I need to be confident they know what they are doing too.
D -- love your sage advice but I have also been told by many, if you are going to go MC, low output is the way to go. I am intrigued by the concept and have 2 pretty decent phono pre's I can play with (Vincent PHO-8 and Parasound Halo P5) which both have MM/MC. 60dB+ gain for MC.

So with this said, I have some decisions and bartering to do. Really don't need the Klipsch Forte's anymore so the negotiating begins.

However, I really do love the looks of the Sumito EVO III. It's hot and 2 channels bouncing!!!!

I can recommend this as suggested by TMadden: http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATOC9III.html

It was where I purchased mine.  I bought it based on my previous experience with the MKII, which they also now sell again.   Be advised these AT MCs put out 0.4mVs, which is high as far as low output MC cartridge.  Even the MKII IMHO is a better cart than the Denon 103R, which I also have.   However, taking any of the "budget" cartridges mentioned, and sending them off to SOUNDSMITH for one of their retips at $250.00 to $350.00, will then elevate that same cartridge into the range of a $2K to $5K cart.  Seriously, those retips are that good.

Quintet Bronze is the bomb. Listened to some of my "spec" vinyl and highs, soundstage has improved. On a few songs, I said "wow". Volume setting is about 1:30 - 2 o'clock versus 1- 1:30 with MM before but no big deal. Had to shim up the arm and with standard Rega counterweight, dust cover does not fully seat in the closed position but not a show stopper. Pretty good size cart. Time for more serious listening now to compare but thus far, glad I went this route. Next step is vinyl cleaning which I have read a lot about and need to explore more decent budget options. Thanks for all the input. Highly recommend this cart.