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    Another thread about my reel to reel

    Dave_in_Va
    Dave_in_Va
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    • Post n°1

    Another thread about my reel to reel Empty Another thread about my reel to reel

    Post by Dave_in_Va Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:58 am

    So I got the deck installed and I've tested it out. It seems to record and play fine.

    Always a BUT...The output seems low. I have to crank the vol. on the SP 14 to around 1 or 2 o'clock to get the same vol as I get from my turntable at around 10 o'clock (that's with the output of the reel to reel set at the center 12 o'clock, detent position). If I crank the output on the reel to reel over to around 3 o'clock, the vol. on the SP 14 can come down to around 12 o'clock.

    The reel to reel is in the tape loop of the SP 14.

    One thing I thought of is that my cartridge might be the difference. When I upgraded the cartridge on my Music Hall 5.1 from the stock cart. to an Ortofon 2M Black there was a pretty drastic increase in quality and volume.

    Could it just be that the Ortofon output is that much superior to the Pioneer output and I should find something else to worry about?

    Thanks for all the help and advice.
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    Peter W.
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    • Post n°2

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    Post by Peter W. Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:31 pm

    Let's parse this some:
    a) The RtR output is partially based on the recording level. Most commercial recordings on tape are at a low level as they are for lower-end consumer tape machines using a typical dual-purpose record/playback head. So, if you are playing back a commercially recorded tape, you may need to boost your output levels.

    b) I am sure your deck has an output level control - try adjusting it so that the VU meters bounce, on average, at 0 dB.

    To test all this, try recording a tape for playback. If you hvae a three-head machine, set your recording level to match input to output, or saturation, which ever comes first. Then, see if it plays back at the correct level.

    I am running a Revox A77 road deck, and a B215 Cassette Deck. The cassette deck allows me to adjust the output level apart from the front controls - and I am also feeding it into an A720 which allows me to adjust the input levels (in the back) for matching purposes. Handy.
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    Onlinepeterh
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    • Post n°3

    Another thread about my reel to reel Empty Re: Another thread about my reel to reel

    Post by peterh Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:13 pm

    Dave_in_Va wrote:So I got the deck installed and I've tested it out. It seems to record and play fine.

    Always a BUT...The output seems low. I have to crank the vol. on the SP 14 to around 1 or 2 o'clock to get the same vol as I get from my turntable at around 10 o'clock (that's with the output of the reel to reel set at the center 12 o'clock, detent position). If I crank the output on the reel to reel over to around 3 o'clock, the vol. on the SP 14 can come down to around 12 o'clock.

    The reel to reel is in the tape loop of the SP 14.

    One thing I thought of is that my cartridge might be the difference. When I upgraded the cartridge on my Music Hall 5.1 from the stock cart. to an Ortofon 2M Black there was a pretty drastic increase in quality and volume.

    Could it just be that the Ortofon output is that much superior to the Pioneer output and I should find something else to worry about?

    Thanks for all the help and advice.

    I guess that your tape has 0.6V as output.
    "real" preamps has level controls on all inputs. Without this one has to accept that
    different sources has different level, thats what you have to use you volume control.

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    Dave_in_Va
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    • Post n°4

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    Post by Dave_in_Va Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:11 pm

    Peter W. wrote:Let's parse this some:
    a)  The RtR output is partially based on the recording level. Most commercial recordings on tape are at a low level as they are for lower-end consumer tape machines using a typical dual-purpose record/playback head. So, if you are playing back a commercially recorded tape, you may need to boost your output levels.

    b) I am sure your deck has an output level control - try adjusting it so that the VU meters bounce, on average, at 0 dB.

    I did that. I set the levels according to the manual.

    To test all this, try recording a tape for playback. If you have a three-head machine, set your recording level to match input to output, or saturation, which ever comes first. Then, see if it plays back at the correct level.

    I wil try it this way. That's going make a really hot signal.

    I am running a Revox A77 road deck, and a B215 Cassette Deck. The cassette deck allows me to adjust the output level apart from the front controls - and I am also feeding it into an A720 which allows me to adjust the input levels (in the back) for matching purposes. Handy.

    Thanks Peter. More later.
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    • Post n°5

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    Post by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:22 pm

    I guess that is one of the issues with old pre recorded stuff. I do not bother with those, as I had nothing but sound issues with the ones I tried.
    Can you find out from the tech that restored your deck at what flux level he calibrated the deck at. For consumer level decks, I am guessing 200 to 250nWB/m at no more than +3dB.
    Your best test would be to record your own tape, setting the record level so that the VU meters hover around the 0dB mark and under, try not to overload/saturate the recording/tape too much.
    Then during playback, the levels should be just fine without requiring a lot of volume.
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    Peter W.
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    Post by Peter W. Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:41 pm

    Moving forward on this - it also could be as simple as your pre-recorded tape is not aligned to your deck. My guess is that you have the Pioneer 909, which is one helluva fine deck, and is probably properly aligned. I could, while packing up that switch, record something on my Revox and send it along to see if you have the same issue. If so, you might look for an alignment tape for your machine. They are out there, and not terribly costly, either.
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    Dave_in_Va
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    Another thread about my reel to reel Empty Re: Another thread about my reel to reel

    Post by Dave_in_Va Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:09 pm

    Thanks everyone. (Yes, it's the Pioneer RT 909, Peter.)
    I had a recording engineer friend over today and he said that it needs calibration between the source and "tape" switches. I think that's what he said.
    Any way, I've ordered a copy of the service manual (on CD unfortunately) and when it gets here my friend will calibrate and check out the machine again (Azimuth adj. etc.).
    He said other than that, the machine is great. It sure functions smoothly.
    But most importantly, it looks cool! ;-)
    Stress levels lowering as I type....
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    • Post n°8

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    Post by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:23 pm

    Dave_in_Va wrote:Thanks everyone. (Yes, it's the Pioneer RT 909, Peter.)
    I had a recording engineer friend over today and he said that it needs calibration between the source and "tape" switches. I think that's what he said.
    Any way, I've ordered a copy of the service manual (on CD unfortunately) and when it gets here my friend will calibrate and check out the machine again (Azimuth adj. etc.).
    He said other than that, the machine is great. It sure functions smoothly.
    But most importantly, it looks cool! ;-)
    Stress levels lowering as I type....


    hhhmmmm......in order to correctly calibrate any reel to reel deck, the correct calibration tape/s need to be used with the correct/suitable flux level as mentioned in my earlier post.
    I am assuming that your friend knows that. Also, some specific calibration equipment should also be used. That is the ONLY way to properly calibrate a reel to reel deck. It is not rocket science, but the right tools need to be used.
    The RT909 is a very good deck once it has been correctly and properly aligned and calibrated.
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    deepee99
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    • Post n°9

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    Post by deepee99 Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:18 pm

    erhard-audio wrote:I guess that is one of the issues with old pre recorded stuff. I do not bother with those, as I had nothing but sound issues with the ones I tried.
    Can you find out from the tech that restored your deck at what flux level he calibrated the deck at. For consumer level decks, I am guessing 200 to 250nWB/m at no more than +3dB.
    Your best test would be to record your own tape, setting the record level so that the VU meters hover around the 0dB mark and under, try not to overload/saturate the recording/tape too much.
    Then during playback, the levels should be just fine without requiring a lot of volume.

    Brings to mind a question and a just-learnt observation:
    Has anyone had experience with the new 7.5 ips R2R pre-recordeds? They're fetching a pretty penny, so I guess some people like 'em. Holger is absolutely right about the old stuff. It was mass-prod, record speed turned way up so they could churn 'em out, and laid down to crappy, scaly commercial tape. Playing just one and you'll be cleaning your modern machine top to bottom. No cleaning and it's good-bye heads.
    Second, a heads-up for R2R drivers. Wouldn't hurt to torque the screws or bolts down on your tape reels from time to time. They DO loosen up, even just sitting there, it seems. The aftermath of one flying apart during rewind or FF beggars the imagination. As it was, my machine was stopped, then I heard this little *tink* as a reel-screw fell out and struck an exposed 6550 on its way down, spacer and female behind it. That would not have been pretty at high speed.
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    deepee99
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    • Post n°10

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    Post by deepee99 Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:07 pm

    erhard-audio wrote:
    Dave_in_Va wrote:Thanks everyone. (Yes, it's the Pioneer RT 909, Peter.)
    I had a recording engineer friend over today and he said that it needs calibration between the source and "tape" switches. I think that's what he said.
    Any way, I've ordered a copy of the service manual (on CD unfortunately) and when it gets here my friend will calibrate and check out the machine again (Azimuth adj. etc.).
    He said other than that, the machine is great. It sure functions smoothly.
    But most importantly, it looks cool! ;-)
    Stress levels lowering as I type....


    hhhmmmm......in order to correctly calibrate any reel to reel deck, the correct calibration tape/s need to be used with the correct/suitable flux level as mentioned in my earlier post.
    I am assuming that your friend knows that. Also, some specific calibration equipment should also be used. That is the ONLY way to properly calibrate a reel to reel deck. It is not rocket science, but the right tools need to be used.
    The RT909 is a very good deck once it has been correctly and properly aligned and calibrated.
    Aligning and calibratin' ain't easy. Correct me, but I think a good calibration tape for a single speed runs pretty close to $100
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    Dave_in_Va
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    Post by Dave_in_Va Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:37 pm

    Thanks Holger.
    He's got the tools and equipment. He just totally restored a Revox PR 99 for his studio.
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    Post by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:40 pm

    Dave_in_Va wrote:Thanks Holger.
    He's got the tools and equipment. He just totally restored a Revox PR 99 for his studio.

    good to know, your RT909 is in good hands then! Very Happy
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    deepee99
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    Post by deepee99 Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:16 pm

    Holger's my go-to guy for all heavy boxes that have those big spinny things on them.


    Last edited by deepee99 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Dave_in_Va
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    Post by Dave_in_Va Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:32 pm

    deepee99 wrote:Kind of a snarky name for a thread, methinks

    ??
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    deepee99
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    Post by deepee99 Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:34 am

    A little inside baseball, Dave.
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