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    Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

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    TMadden

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2011-12-22

    Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by TMadden on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:16 am

    I'm getting ready to venture into the world of moving coil cartridges. Found a good buy on a Benz Micro Glider SM. Is it going to put my Shure V15 type 4 to shame? The output is .8mv, will that be sufficient with Roy's PH12 or PH14 phono stage with their 53-55db of available gain? It's a fairly serious investment, don't want to mess up here!

    Tube Nube

    Posts : 603
    Join date : 2008-12-06
    Age : 53
    Location : Calgary, AB

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by Tube Nube on Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:15 pm

    TMad,

    Congratulations on your escalating addiction . . . I mean, congratulations on your pursuit of increasingly exciting upgrades to an already great system.

    My understanding is that so-called "hi output" MC cartridges won't have problems playing into typical MM phono stages, and from what I've been reading, hi output is around 1.0mv and up, while typical MM phonos have something like 40+ db of gain.

    So, you're cartridge is in the Hi Out ball park, but your phono is way better in the gain department than "typical." I doubt you'll have a problem, but others will know this better than me.

    My MC cart. gives a low .38 mv, and it does play through my phono with a similar gain figure of 55db. I haven't really given much of a listen this way though, because I run it through a (K & K) Step-Up Transformer which I understood to be necessary.

    I really doubt you'll need a Step-Up, but if ever you get into other MC carts with lower output, that's all you'll need to make it work.

    Edit: I guess this is actually classified as a medium output MC.


    Last edited by Tube Nube on Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Tube Nube

    Posts : 603
    Join date : 2008-12-06
    Age : 53
    Location : Calgary, AB

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by Tube Nube on Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:23 pm

    Here's a review of the low-output brother of your cartridge:

    http://www.hifizine.com/2011/03/benz-micro-glider-sl-cartridge/

    A good review with a sad ending. ;-)

    tubes4hifi
    Admin

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    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by tubes4hifi on Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:31 pm

    somewhere in the 100,000+ files I have on my computer is a comprehensive fact sheet on MC cartridges, which I'll have to search for later.
    For now, if my quick calculations are correct, .8mv is 16db less than 5mv, so you'll need a minimum of 56db gain in a phono stage.
    You MIGHT get that with the PH12 or PH14 but it's close. Usually for under 1mv output you'll want to add an MC step-up transformer, which runs $300-400 for decent quality.

    Tube Nube

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    Age : 53
    Location : Calgary, AB

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by Tube Nube on Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:58 pm

    Now there's one of the more expert opinions I bet you're glad you got.

    Here's a link to K&K http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html

    You only save $50-60 by building it yourself, but I think it's worth it. The kit is straight forward, and there's very little to do.


    j beede

    Posts : 316
    Join date : 2011-02-07
    Location : California

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by j beede on Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:36 pm

    I have run a Denon 103 (0.3mV) straight in to MM phono inputs with pretty good results. That's 8db lower output than your Benz. You can always add a MC step up device if you are unhappy with noise or SPL. Make sure that you properly load the Benz before making a determination about your need for more gain.

    TMadden

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2011-12-22

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by TMadden on Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:16 pm

    Based on this I pulled the trigger:
    The famous Benz Glider, originally introduced in 1993, now features the Benz MicroRidge stylus and is available in three outputs: SL, SM, SH (each $1,200 MSRP). It’s open air design, medium compliance and 6.8 grams weight make it ideal on a very wide range of tonearms, one of the many reasons for its incredible success. The SL is .4mV at 3.54cm/sec with a coil impedance of 12 ohms, perfectly suited for MC phono stages with 60dB or higher gain. The SM is .8mV and 24 ohms, designed for less efficient systems and tube phono stages with gain between 45 – 58dB. The H2 (2.5mV at 3.54cm/sec) is among the best high output moving coils ever made, ideal for MM type phono stages, low gain tube phono stages and AV systems. The lower mass coils and matched cantilevers of the new S Class retain their real world output levels and with their improved styli, offer higher performance.

    Neil Gader in The Absolute Sound writes about the Glider SM, the 2009 Affordable Phono Cartridge of the Year:

    “It’s not just the superlative tonal balance and unstoppable trackability of the medium output (0.8mV) Glider SM that allows it to cop the Affordable Phono Cartridge of the Year honors, there’s also the Glider’s addictive inner detail and reassuring dash of warmth and pure lusciousness in the lower mids and bass. Don’t forget a presence and a treble range that are enriched with air and harmonic delicacy but steer completely clear of the dreaded etch and dryness of many mc’s, past and present. For those searching for the business end of a playback system that’s as musically expressive as it is honest, the Glider will set any system soaring.”



    Tube Nube

    Posts : 603
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    Age : 53
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    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by Tube Nube on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:00 pm

    TMad,

    I'm excited for ya!

    What kind of deck is to be blessed with such a fine cartridge?

    tubes4hifi
    Admin

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    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by tubes4hifi on Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:08 pm

    I'll 2nd the recommendation by TubeNube for the K&K stepup kit at $325 (or $385 assembled) and add the note that if you want it assembled for a little less $$ I'll supply it to you for $350. If there is enough interest I could do a duplicate kit for $295.
    They also sell a complete phono only preamp KIT for $2400+ (anyone want one assembled I'll do it for +$200), similar to an Audio Research PH-3 or PH-5 ($2000), which also happens to be similar both circuit wise and performance wise to my PH14 phono only preamp (for around $600 kit or $800 finished)

    TMadden

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2011-12-22

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by TMadden on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:00 pm

    Tube Nube wrote:TMad,

    I'm excited for ya!

    What kind of deck is to be blessed with such a fine cartridge?

    I'm really pumped! First moving coil, and a pretty darn good one at that. Open's up a whole new can of worms when it comes to tweaking! Fun!

    The turntable is a Hitachi HT-561. Apparently back in it's day it was pretty top of the line. Way low wow-flutter-rumble, nice arm, even has VTA adjustment. I think she will be fine. Otherwise...

    Shouldn't need a SUT, but if I do, I have a pair of Lundahl 1554A which I can use to boost the Benz up to 1.6mv, plenty for the PH12 or 14. I will mount them right in the preamp, and do any resistor loading/tuning right at the phono jacks or the PH14 board.
    Also becoming very intriuged with all tube LCR RIAA MC phono stages, seems they are all the rage now!

    Tom

    Posts : 166
    Join date : 2011-04-04

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by Tom on Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:50 pm

    Not even close to your league; but,

    Got a Denon DL-110, a HO MC with 1.6mV output for Christmas (thanks Santa!).
    Playing through a stock SP-8 and honestly can't tell the output difference
    from just the volume when compared to
    the Ortofon MM cart, ~5mV output, that it replaced.

    FWIW

    Smile Tom

    TMadden

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2011-12-22

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by TMadden on Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:40 pm

    Thanks Tom, for the information!

    TMadden

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2011-12-22

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by TMadden on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:45 am

    Well I recieved the Benz Micro Glider SM yesterday Very Happy The PH14 phono stage has no trouble at all providing the needed gain without a SUT. No problem with hiss or hum. Was it worth the investment? Too me....
    Absolutely! Bass is more defined, vocals are much clearer, more subtle details are retrieved, highs are much more lifelike. Backround vocals and reverb I never heard before are now obvious. I think it's really a tribute to Roy that a preamp in this price range can do justice to a fine moving coil cartridge. Heck, the cartridge retails for more than I paid for the preamp and the phono stage both, how's that for value!

    tubes4hifi
    Admin

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    Join date : 2008-11-30

    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

    Post by tubes4hifi on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:45 pm

    yeah, maybe I should double my prices on everything!! But no, hey, I'm still here for the DIYers who are on a beer budget with hi-end ears.
    You can always pay double for all the expensive advertising, dealer markups, and Stereophile/Absolute Audio ratings that are totally BS.
    One of these days I'll do an expose' on what's really under those covers . . . .

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    Re: Help Me Out Guys! Moving Coil Questions (Roy, Bob, anybody)

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