tone controls? yes - or no ?

jimmeq wrote:Count me in for Tone controls. Equalizer too. Due to normal human hearing when I play music at a low volume, I like the effect of not only Tone controls, but also ahem, the Loudness button on rare occasions to boost the lower frequencies. Maybe it's my taste in music but there are many recordings I would have mixed and EQ'd differently. For me a good part of HiFi is the ability to tailor the sound to my liking. The room furnishings are pretty well set and the room layout dictated when they are placed so I'm limited as far as room treatments go.

After getting a 5.1 receiver in 2000 (Sony STR-DA777ES) I said goodbye to tone control as this does not have them. When I upgraded to a Emotiva UMC-200 (Sony used as a power amp) the "Tone controls" are 11 parametric EQ settings for each channel so a simple bass or treble boost is not possible. So with a Crown IC-150 preamplifier I have Bass/Treble + Loudness available with my Tube system.

All this said I do find I rarely need to boost any frequencies. The ST-120 has so much bottom end I sometimes find myself reducing the bass via preamp Tone control. (This is easier than adjusting the sub volume on each speaker.) I just like to have Tone controls as an option for the times I feel the need.

erhard-audio wrote:I am a firm believer in tone controls. When correctly and properly applied, such as the Baxandall tone control circuits, they allow the user/listener to fine tune a given song or recording to suit their ears, compensating for speaker placement, room layout and condition and the original recording, of which not all are done well.
It is all very well saying change your speaker placement or treat your room, but I'd guess that this is just not possible or practical in most situations except for those purpose designed listening rooms.
Tone controls have gotten a bad rap over the years, mostly due to misinformation, be it 'innocent' or willing, as well as just plain not understanding the electronics and functions of a given circuit. Yes, there are some badly designed tone controls out there which does not help.
Again I stress, when correctly designed and implemented, tone controls can indeed be an asset!

Peter W. wrote:

erhard-audio wrote:I am a firm believer in tone controls. When correctly and properly applied, such as the Baxandall tone control circuits, they allow the user/listener to fine tune a given song or recording to suit their ears, compensating for speaker placement, room layout and condition and the original recording, of which not all are done well.
It is all very well saying change your speaker placement or treat your room, but I'd guess that this is just not possible or practical in most situations except for those purpose designed listening rooms.
Tone controls have gotten a bad rap over the years, mostly due to misinformation, be it 'innocent' or willing, as well as just plain not understanding the electronics and functions of a given circuit. Yes, there are some badly designed tone controls out there which does not help.
Again I stress, when correctly designed and implemented, tone controls can indeed be an asset!

Agreed!

All of my front-line pre-amps have defeatable tone controls, being the Revox A720, Dynaco PAT 4, 5, & PAS 3x, and Citation 17. The PAT 5 has an EPL (also defeatable) for the insertion of an equalizer if wished. The AR Integrated amp and receiver tone controls null in the center position, as with the Dynaco SCA80.

So, there is no "loss" in having them, meaning that on those few times they are really needed, they are there.

We all  have our personal bits of audiophoolery, some of them 'popular' and some not so much. As long as we have a sense of humor about it, it is all fine. But my bit is that I believe that proper speakers properly fed and properly placed will overcome the most difficult rooms without additional treatment. By way of explaining "proper" speakers, a tiny little 2-way speaker in a very large room is kinda-sorta not the way to go, and putting Maggies in a closet, not so much either.

But, were I to design my own pre-amp (not gonna happen, guys and gals, but....) it would have tone controls.

deepee99 wrote:Well, I demur slightly on tone controls. The Audio Control box Dave in Va has is a case in point, and you can switch it completely out of the signal path. I had a pair of DQ-10s one time which were a bit wimpy on the low end and the Audio Control nicely fixed the curve.
I am a bit of a purist. During my years as a rock critic, I eschewed the backstage hangout and located the mixer out in the cattle section, and that's where I sat -- I wanted to hear what he was hearing. So I've been of the "straight pipes" persuasion. But given the shortcomings of the medium and the vagaries of room acoustics, a little signal tweak can be in order.

Graywulf wrote:No.

First off a quick 'Hello' as I'm a new member, now awaiting a pair of M-125's from Bob, and getting an SP-14 from Roy (hopefully).

Last amp I purchased with any tone control was the 'evergreen' Arcam A60 in the very early 1980's, which I admit I kept for around 15yrs. Then I became a tube convert, and have never used a tone control since. Tube rolling seems to satisfy any 'tone alterations' I need.

tubes4hifi wrote:hey, that was fun, let's answer another question that comes up almost everyday.
Do you want tone controls?   I don't know, you tell me!
Do I recommend tone controls?  NO!     Do I use tone controls?  YES!   Confusing?   YES!

OK, so if you think you want tone controls, the answer is yes, you probably do want tone controls.
I perfectly understand that not everyone has perfect ears, perfect speakers, perfect room setup.
I understand there is probably more poorly recorded music, than music that is recorded perfectly!!

So what you need to know is that tone controls will always compromise sound quality.
This is because using a circuit with tone controls means you need to have a minimum of 3X as much gain as you do without them.
A high quality tone control circuit needs 20db of gain to overcome the losses of tone controls.
Tone controls work two ways, by cutting gain (usually thru filters which just filter those tones to ground) or in worst cases
by using negative feedback to reduce gain on those tones.
To boost bass and treble (more likely than reducing it) those extreme frequencies need more gain, more amplification, which can lead to more noise,
worse signal to noise ratio, more distortion, and usually all the other frequencies (the critical midrange) are subjected to negative feedback.

These are the things we deal with in order to make the music sound better to our own ears, using our own speakers, our own rooms, our own recordings.
We do need tone controls to overcome all these short comings, but we have to accept that the compromises involved are not as bad as the results.
Are they better?   They can be, or maybe not, that again, is a subjective question that only you can answer for yourself.

Oh, so maybe you'd like my OPINION, rather than the facts as presented above?
Sure!   Do I like tone controls?  NO!   Do I recommend tone controls?  NO!   Do I use tone controls?   YES!   Sometimes, but I only use them when needed,
as necessary, and when I am prepared to accept all those limitations to overcome my own personal set of limitations involving my own ears, my own speakers,
my own listening room, my own recordings, some of which are awful, some have no bass, some have way too much bass, some are tinny, some are hollow.

Hey, here's an idea for you.   Need more bass?   Get a subwoofer, you can dial in as much boost as you want or need.   And guess what,
then you don't need a bass control on your preamp!!!   You don't need extra gain, extra noise, poorer circuit design.    What a concept!!!
So . . . . need more treble?   Gee, let's think about that for a moment.   Maybe I could add an extra tweeter, a more efficient tweeter, one with it's own gain control. . . .

Hey, here's an idea for you.   Make sure your listening room is at least somewhat enhanced to actually sound better.  
Do some research, read some books, buy some room treatments.  
Go all in !!!   Buy a digital DSP EQ system for $10,000 and have it shape and perfect everything to your ears and your room!   Really???   No, I think NOT!!!

The bottom line - music is for enjoyment, and that is subjective, so do your own thing!!!
And MY recommendations?   Get the very best speakers you can afford, get your room setup correctly, buy better music, and THEN,
either buy an SP14 (and a PH16 for phono) or buy an SP9 with tone controls, and then . . . . enjoy the music!!   Simple!!

tubes4hifi wrote:here's an EZ solution if you need to add tone controls
https://jdslabs.com/product/subjective3/

DavidR wrote:I almost never use tone controls. Can't remember the last time I did.

tubes4hifi wrote:tone controls - now 8 years later . . .

good news for those of you wanting tone controls in a VTA/Tubes4HiFi preamp, or want to add quality tone controls to an existing preamp.
Also everything that I dislike about tone controls has been solved.  
Here are the problems . . .
* you lose gain, most designs lose 20db, which is more gain than most preamps have to start with.
        this was solved (?) by adding another 20db gain stage, which of course adds a potential 20db of noise also
* you need a source of power - even worse when adding to an existing preamp that wasn't designed to power another circuit

Here's the solution - and I'm now offering this board for sale ($50)
* totally passive - no power supply needed, no extra noise added
* limits boost and cut to 6db, which is MORE than enough, that's double or half of the original signal, and most preamps have enough gain even with this added

contact me directly by email for purchase
this board uses two high quality ALPS stepped attenuators (21 steps, for bass, and for treble, that's about 1/2 db per step)