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    cryo tubes

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    MontanaWay

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    cryo tubes

    Post by MontanaWay on Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:39 pm

    What are the opinions of members here regarding cryo treated tubes, are they really better than standard tubes?

    sKiZo

    Posts : 1287
    Join date : 2013-04-01
    Location : Michigan USA

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by sKiZo on Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:33 pm

    Eh ...

    Theory is that the cryo process "realigns" the molecules in the tube structure, thus getting them and us closer to nirvana ...

    Done right it's supposed to be a fairly major improvement for matching tube sets - potential improvement in stability (if that's a problem, you've probably got other issues), and the debate rages on as to whether there's any potential for improved sound - which for me is the goal.

    Problem being, in many cases, it's all snake oil.



    Most anyone who offers a cryo option is pretty closed mouth about the specifics of how they do it. Takes some serious equipment and investment to give them the full monty.

    peterh

    Posts : 643
    Join date : 2012-12-25
    Location : gothenburg, sweden

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by peterh on Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:49 pm

    MontanaWay wrote:What are the opinions of members here regarding cryo treated tubes, are they really better than standard tubes?

    It's a new kind of snake oil. No scientific claims, no independent measurement and no explanation.
    But we all know what money can make :-)

    MontanaWay

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    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by MontanaWay on Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:52 pm

    so has anyone here used cryo tubes and has been able to compare them to standard......

    peterh

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    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by peterh on Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:54 pm

    MontanaWay wrote:so has anyone here used cryo tubes and has been able to compare them to standard......
    No. I have noticed the lack of scientific proofs and technical explanations for the alleged affects.

    ArlanB

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    Location : Santa Cruz, California

    Cryo Tubes

    Post by ArlanB on Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:29 pm

    OK I'll fess up and admit that I fell victim to the cryogenic craze.  A little over four years ago I invested in a matched set of cryoed Electroharmonics KT88's to use in my VTA ST120.  I had them about nine months before one of the tubes in the set failed, however during the first six months of their use I invested in a set of Penta Labs KT88SC's and was able to make comparisons and found that the cryogenic process did not seem to make any improvement in sound quality over the non cryoed tubes.  In point of fact I found the Shuguang manufactured tubes appeared to actually have a better overall sound.  Being that I have only tried cryoed power tubes, I am unable to remark on what if any changes/improvements could be observed with the use of cryoed driver tubes.  Having had my fling with the cryogenic process, I would not spend the extra amount for cryogenic treated tubes again.

    arledgsc

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    Location : SF Bay CA

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by arledgsc on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:43 am

    Cryogenic processes can help strength in metals such as relieving stress on welds, bends, and folds.  After treatment though a spotty weld could be worse off and fail earlier unless carefully screened and burned in.

    But changing the sound quality consistently is pure hogwash and definitely snake oil.  After treatment you always hear of miraculous sonics for the better.  Seems there should be an equal chance of it going south as well.  I have some cryoed tubes and I can't tell any difference one way or the other.

    Jim McShane

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    Location : South Suburban Chicago

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by Jim McShane on Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:36 am

    peterh wrote:
    MontanaWay wrote:so has anyone here used cryo tubes and has been able to compare them to standard......
    No. I have noticed the lack of scientific proofs and technical explanations for the alleged affects.

    I think it should be noted that cryogenic treatment of some materials has clear, provable benefits. It certainly is a legitimate materials treatment process, there's no doubt about that. HOWEVER...

    What effect - if any - that cryo treatment process has on the performance of a vacuum tube is certainly a subject for debate. The science behind cryogenics and cryogenic treatment is real; the application of that science to vacuum tubes is what's not clear to me.

    peterh

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    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by peterh on Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:54 am

    Jim McShane wrote:
    peterh wrote:
    MontanaWay wrote:so has anyone here used cryo tubes and has been able to compare them to standard......
    No. I have noticed the lack of scientific proofs and technical explanations for the alleged affects.

    I think it should be noted that cryogenic treatment of some materials has clear, provable benefits. It certainly is a legitimate materials treatment process, there's no doubt about that. HOWEVER...

    What effect - if any - that cryo treatment process has on the performance of a vacuum tube is certainly a subject for debate. The science behind cryogenics and cryogenic treatment is real; the application of that science to vacuum tubes is what's not clear to me.

    well spoken!

    Gregg R.

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    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by Gregg R. on Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:49 pm

    I purchased a matched quad of cryoed EH6550s last Jan. for $159.  I used them in my VTA-70 until about 3 weeks ago, when I replaced them with a matched quad of EL34s for $34. Here's a link to the eBay page which describes the cryogenic process:

    Cryoset Store

    I simply prefer the sound of the EL34s in my amp; the 6550s worked flawlessly. I also purchased a matched pair of cryoed Voshod 6N1Ps for a different amp, but didn't care much for the sound. I have NO reason to believe that Ron Sheldon of Cryoset is selling snake oil, but there is no visual method of evaluating his claims other than a sticker on the box. They look the same as regular tubes. Cryogenics adds about $10 to the price of each tube. Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio is also a big proponent of cryoing.

    I agree with Jim McShane. Cryogenics is a proven technology for some applications, such as Formula One racecars, but is unproven vis-a-vis vacuum tubes. The evidence is mostly anecdotal. You would need controlled experiments with a wide range of tubes over a long period. Maybe we need Congress to appropriate a few million bucks for this project! Send me a check Al Franken; I've got plenty of free time!!

    Bob Latino
    Admin

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    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by Bob Latino on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:55 am

    I have never used cryoed tubes. I am somewhat sceptical of how or IF the realignment of the molecular structure of the metal inside the tube will ALWAYS allow that tube to give better sound. I am not saying that a cryoed tube can't or will never sound better but you would have to do a controlled ABX double blind sound test to see if an amp with cryoed tubes sounded better than an identical amp without cryoed tubes.

    ABX test > A is one amp and B is the other amp and X is randomly selected either A or B and you (the listener) have to make a choice > Is X amp A ? or is X amp B ?
    Double blind test > The person conducting the test who is making the switches does not know which amp is which.

    Many "Which audio interconnect is best ? or which speaker cable is best ?" tests have been done with most people not being able to tell the difference between expensive and inexpensive cables. As an aside, Cryoset is now selling cryoed interconnects. Other companys sell cryogenic speaker cables. You can buy cryogenic wire. In the future, will EVERY component in your tube amp need to be cryoed for your amp to achieve its "best sound" ?

    Bob

    MontanaWay

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    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by MontanaWay on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:20 am

    I've been doing some reading on this subject, and its pretty much 50/50 on opinions out there.
    I will have an opportunity coming up to test cryo KT120's against 'standard' KT120's, will keep you all posted of what I personally find!

    wildiowa

    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2012-03-19

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by wildiowa on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:40 am

    I'm a practical kinda Iowa farm boy. I don't mean to be indiscreet but this has a whiff of farmyard bouquet to me. I may also be totally naïve and a complete hick.

    GP49

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    Location : East of the sun and west of the moon

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by GP49 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:42 am

    Or you could have both feet firmly on the ground, and are not smoking funny cigarettes. Don't sell yourself short.

    wildiowa

    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2012-03-19

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by wildiowa on Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:45 pm

    Well, we are quite close to Colorado, so those funny smokes??? I also have two daughters who moved from the farm to the belly of the beast...New York City. I am happy to report their view of me as a total backwater rube becomes less and less the older they get.

    corndog71

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    Location : It can get windy here

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by corndog71 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:09 pm

    I know one tube seller that thinks cryo'd tubes are silly.

    PeterCapo

    Posts : 380
    Join date : 2008-12-05

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by PeterCapo on Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:39 pm

    A little while ago, I bought a pair of JJ 12DW7 for my Stereo 35 but did not like the way they sounded - kind of blurry. Then, for the heck of it, I sent them out for cryogenic treatment. I was skeptical, but when they came back, I was surprised to find them sounding substantially better. This is all the experience I have had so far with cryo’d tubes, but, based upon it, I hope to try it again some time. I don't think I'd have any tubes cryo'd that I am otherwise happy with, though.

    MontanaWay

    Posts : 767
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Age : 58
    Location : Cameron, Montana

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by MontanaWay on Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:11 am

    well I got the cryo ST120's delivered. There are no obvious differences to standard ones.
    It will be about a week yet before I can test them, will keep you guys up to date!

    peterh

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    Join date : 2012-12-25
    Location : gothenburg, sweden

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by peterh on Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:57 am

    MontanaWay wrote:well I got the cryo ST120's delivered. There are no obvious differences to standard ones.
    It will be about a week yet before I can test them, will keep you guys up to date!
    Yes, please do.

    MontanaWay

    Posts : 767
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Age : 58
    Location : Cameron, Montana

    Re: cryo tubes

    Post by MontanaWay on Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:46 pm

    well, I had a chance to try cryo versus standard tubes, KT120's on a ST120.
    I could not hear any difference between the two sets.
    What I did notice is that the plates on all the cryo treated tubes were kind of mottled, they looked 'aged', where as the standard tubes plates were a pretty even coloration/surface texture.
    As well, on the cryo tubes, I saw quite a bit of silver flakes inside, not sure if they were from the getters or other parts.
    So in short, I will not bother with cryo tubes for my own systems, unless a client requests them, I will always use not treated tubes.

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