Playing LPs – Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre

So, I have a question for all y’all Vinyl lovers. I want to upgrade our current LP playback components.

Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre?

Our turntable is a decent yet entry level Technics SL-BD20, it’s a P-Mount, but we have a Sure M92E cart, a nice upgrade.

Our phono preamp is a Bellari VP130 MM. Upgrades: Tube & Power Supply, sounds great for the price.

I inherited an nice LP collection, 500+ records. There are about ~ 75 - 78 RPM discs so we a looking to get a turntable that plays 78s too. Plus, I’ve been picking up LPs so we have a decent collection.

I don’t mind swapping head shells to have a special 78 stylus if necessary.

My question is, where to go 1st? Turntable or Phono Pre?

These components are gifts from my family to me. I buy what I want for x-mass & birthday (April).
When I install them, I say thanks for the present, they don’t know what me get me anymore so it works.

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

aguaazul wrote:So, I have a question for all y’all Vinyl lovers. I want to upgrade our current LP playback components.

Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre?

Our turntable is a decent yet entry level Technics SL-BD20, it’s a P-Mount, but we have a Sure M92E cart, a nice upgrade.

Our phono preamp is a Bellari VP130 MM. Upgrades: Tube & Power Supply, sounds great for the price.

I inherited an nice LP collection, 500+ records. There are about ~ 75 - 78 RPM discs so we a looking to get a turntable that plays 78s too. Plus, I’ve been picking up LPs so we have a decent collection.

I don’t mind swapping head shells to have a special 78 stylus if necessary.

My question is, where to go 1st? Turntable or Phono Pre?

These components are gifts from my family to me. I buy what I want for x-mass & birthday (April).
When I install them, I say thanks for the present, they don’t know what me get me anymore so it works.

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

I would have bought a turntable for the 78 only. This saves the cartridges from changes.
If you are lucky enough to have a Dynaco PAS you already have a "spare" input that
can be adopted to 78 cartridge, otherwize get a separate pre and connect to a line input.

peterh wrote:

aguaazul wrote:So, I have a question for all y’all Vinyl lovers. I want to upgrade our current LP playback components.

Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre?

Our turntable is a decent yet entry level Technics SL-BD20, it’s a P-Mount, but we have a Sure M92E cart, a nice upgrade.

Our phono preamp is a Bellari VP130 MM. Upgrades: Tube & Power Supply, sounds great for the price.

I inherited an nice LP collection, 500+ records. There are about ~ 75 - 78 RPM discs so we a looking to get a turntable that plays 78s too. Plus, I’ve been picking up LPs so we have a decent collection.

I don’t mind swapping head shells to have a special 78 stylus if necessary.

My question is, where to go 1st? Turntable or Phono Pre?

These components are gifts from my family to me. I buy what I want for x-mass & birthday (April).
When I install them, I say thanks for the present, they don’t know what me get me anymore so it works.

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

I would have bought a turntable for the 78 only. This saves the cartridges from changes.
If you are lucky enough to have a Dynaco PAS you already have a "spare" input that
can be adopted to 78 cartridge, otherwize get a separate pre and connect to a line input.

We have an SP14 Preamp.

My question is, with my current phono playback items, what should I upgrade 1st, the Table or Pre?
Maybe I get a PH16, run it with my current table, and get a 78 only.
Thanks Peter, this is another avenue to travel down.

I'd go for the turntable first. Your SL-BD20 does not have swappable headshells, and p-mount cartridges are quite uncommon at this point with only a few models still in production from Audio Technica and Grado (and the Grados aren't really proper p-mounts).

aguaazul wrote:

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

You definitely seem to have done your research and know where you want to go...so I guess you don't want to go down any rabbit holes like a Linn LP-12.

My experience, or at least what I've been taught, is that the turntable is the most important component in a phono system setup.  So, I'd agree with getting the turntable first.  Then the PH-16 two days later

dave

aguaazul wrote:So, I have a question for all y’all Vinyl lovers. I want to upgrade our current LP playback components.

Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre?

Our turntable is a decent yet entry level Technics SL-BD20, it’s a P-Mount, but we have a Sure M92E cart, a nice upgrade.

Our phono preamp is a Bellari VP130 MM. Upgrades: Tube & Power Supply, sounds great for the price.

I inherited an nice LP collection, 500+ records. There are about ~ 75 - 78 RPM discs so we a looking to get a turntable that plays 78s too. Plus, I’ve been picking up LPs so we have a decent collection.

I don’t mind swapping head shells to have a special 78 stylus if necessary.

My question is, where to go 1st? Turntable or Phono Pre?

These components are gifts from my family to me. I buy what I want for x-mass & birthday (April).
When I install them, I say thanks for the present, they don’t know what me get me anymore so it works.

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

Blue,
Have you spoken with Dave Archimbault at Vinylnirvana.com? I would get an old, thoroughly rehabbed Thorens or even AR table from him. Detachable headshells. Sumpin' like this, which is what I have:
https://vinylnirvana.com/product/thorens-td-160-super-reproduction-new-jelco-550s-tonearm-solid-cherry-plinth-ortofon-2m-bronze-cartridge
except with the 2m black cartridge.
Does beautiful work. Vibration and rumble-free. Regas and VPIs (I have owned both) are junk by comparison. Can't speak to the Technics, although I do have a Technics RS1700 R2R you'd have to pry from my cold, dead fingers, so prolly good stuff.
As to phono preamps, the PH-16 uses readily available 6922-type tubes (6- or-7DJ8s can also be used and good ones can be had far cheaper than equivalent quality 6922s).
P.S.
Stay close by the mailbox
deepee

I agree on the turntable upgrade.
You could look into the Ortofon Super OM series of cartridges. Then you can just replace stylus.

The stylus are equivalent to the 2M series, but there is only one cartridge across the entire range.
That way you can buy a Super OM-10 to start with and a Stylus 78 and you are good to go. Later you can upgrade just stylus.

Stylus 10 is equivalent to Ortofon 2M Red
Stylus 20 is equivalent to Ortofon 2M Blue (this is what I have)
Stylus 30 is equivalent to Ortofon 2M Bronze
Stylus 40 is equivalent to Ortofon 2m Black

Stylus 78
https://www.ortofon.com/stylus-78-p-375

I would also opt for a turntable vintage in Europe opted for Thorens TD124, TD125, TD160, Lenco L75, L78 or Garrard 301, 401 mainly. The replacement of the tonearm is required, an SME 3009, 3012 or a Jelco may be suitable.

In america there is the turntable Rek or kut which has good reviews, the tonearm of that mark (micropoise) is good, but has the problem using exclusive headshell by its measures.

For Lp's 78 rpm one of the best cartridge is the GE-RPX, although the model GE-VRII is best balanced thinking also of monophonic LPs.

For Lp's stereo using a high-mass tonearm, can be suitable the Shure M3D or M7D.

solderblob wrote:

aguaazul wrote:

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

You definitely seem to have done your research and know where you want to go...so I guess you don't want to go down any rabbit holes like a Linn LP-12.

My experience, or at least what I've been taught, is that the turntable is the most important component in a phono system setup.  So, I'd agree with getting the turntable first.  Then the PH-16 two days later

dave

Thanks Skriefal & Dave,
It's clear that I do need the TT upgrade. I like the two days later 1 - 2 punch with the PH16!
Aguaazul

deepee99 wrote:

aguaazul wrote:So, I have a question for all y’all Vinyl lovers. I want to upgrade our current LP playback components.

Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre?

Our turntable is a decent yet entry level Technics SL-BD20, it’s a P-Mount, but we have a Sure M92E cart, a nice upgrade.

Our phono preamp is a Bellari VP130 MM. Upgrades: Tube & Power Supply, sounds great for the price.

I inherited an nice LP collection, 500+ records. There are about ~ 75 - 78 RPM discs so we a looking to get a turntable that plays 78s too. Plus, I’ve been picking up LPs so we have a decent collection.

I don’t mind swapping head shells to have a special 78 stylus if necessary.

My question is, where to go 1st? Turntable or Phono Pre?

These components are gifts from my family to me. I buy what I want for x-mass & birthday (April).
When I install them, I say thanks for the present, they don’t know what me get me anymore so it works.

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

Blue,
Have you spoken with Dave Archimbault at Vinylnirvana.com? I would get an old, thoroughly rehabbed Thorens or even AR table from him. Detachable headshells. Sumpin' like this, which is what I have:
https://vinylnirvana.com/product/thorens-td-160-super-reproduction-new-jelco-550s-tonearm-solid-cherry-plinth-ortofon-2m-bronze-cartridge
except with the 2m black cartridge.
Does beautiful work. Vibration and rumble-free. Regas and VPIs (I have owned both) are junk by comparison. Can't speak to the Technics, although I do have a Technics RS1700 R2R you'd have to pry from my cold, dead fingers, so prolly good stuff.
As to phono preamps, the PH-16 uses readily available 6922-type tubes (6- or-7DJ8s can also be used and good ones can be had far cheaper than equivalent quality 6922s).
P.S.
Stay close by the mailbox
deepee

Deepee,
I did purchase an hour of time from Dave at Vinylnirvana. It was well worth it.  His tables can't do the 78 RPM and I'm leaning down the Semi-Automatic road.
Looking forward to your shipment!
Blue

ttownscott wrote:I agree on the turntable upgrade.
You could look into the Ortofon Super OM series of cartridges. Then you can just replace stylus.

The stylus are equivalent to the 2M series, but there is only one cartridge across the entire range.
That way you can buy a Super OM-10 to start with and a Stylus 78 and you are good to go. Later you can upgrade just stylus.

Stylus 10 is equivalent to Ortofon 2M Red
Stylus 20 is equivalent to Ortofon 2M Blue (this is what I have)
Stylus 30 is equivalent to Ortofon 2M Bronze
Stylus 40 is equivalent to Ortofon 2m Black

Stylus 78
https://www.ortofon.com/stylus-78-p-375

Great Info. I guess swapping stylus is less setup work than changing out the whole head shell?

aguaazul wrote:

solderblob wrote:

aguaazul wrote:

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

You definitely seem to have done your research and know where you want to go...so I guess you don't want to go down any rabbit holes like a Linn LP-12.

My experience, or at least what I've been taught, is that the turntable is the most important component in a phono system setup.  So, I'd agree with getting the turntable first.  Then the PH-16 two days later

dave

Thanks Skriefal & Dave,
It's clear that I do need the TT upgrade. I like the two days later 1 - 2 punch with the PH16!
Aguaazul

Or you could . . .
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Marantz-Model-1-Audio-Consolette-Preamplifier-w-Model-4-Power-Supply-/283135548308?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

-d-

Pillo69 wrote:I would also opt for a turntable vintage in Europe opted for Thorens TD124, TD125, TD160, Lenco L75, L78 or Garrard 301, 401 mainly. The replacement of the tonearm is required, an SME 3009, 3012 or a Jelco may be suitable.

In america there is the turntable Rek or kut which has good reviews, the tonearm of that mark (micropoise) is good, but has the problem using exclusive headshell by its measures.

For Lp's 78 rpm one of the best cartridge is the GE-RPX, although the model GE-VRII is best balanced thinking also of monophonic LPs.

For Lp's stereo using a high-mass tonearm, can be suitable the Shure M3D or M7D.

Pillo,
I like the vintage idea. Thanks for some suggestions along those lines that can do the 78's!
I've got some more TT research to do.
PH16 is a lock. The turntable world still needs a tad bit more learning.
Aguaazul

Great Info. I guess swapping stylus is less setup work than changing out the whole head shell?

About the same, at least on the Ortofons.
It's swapping out cartridges and going through all the alignment BS that will have you talking to yourself. Interchangeable head-shells are best as you don't have to do the re-set everything.
If you get a PH-16 talk to me about 6922-type tubes. I've got a basement full of them, and actually McShane's Gold Lions are pretty good.

I have very strong opinions on this combination. Some things to keep in mind:

a) The most expensive part of a turntable is the vinyl that plays on it. Therefore, that which preserves the vinyl should take primacy over pretty much everything else.
b) A well-designed stylus tracking at the appropriate pressure comes next.
c) Accurate tracking comes next.

There are many options for b).  But for c), A well-designed linear TT is the best option. I keep a Revox and a Rabco. They are fussy, and a PITA to set up, but after that is completed, and the necessary maintenance is complete - there is nothing better! And, yes, I would start with the hardware first. There is a great deal of mythology, smoke, mirrors and snake-oil surrounding phono pre-amps. So before subscribing to the myths, breathing the smoke or imbibing the oil, consider that this is 100% settled technology since the 1960s.

Blue,
A "well designed" and set-up linear is the most logical, but they are a PITA to set up. I liked my B&O but it long ago laid an egg, nobody around to fix it, and (at least in the B&O's case) cartridge choice was very limited and expensive. Maybe there is an after-market but I never bothered to pursue. It gathers dust at a friend's house.
If I wanted the full three-speed range TT of old, I'd focus on the 2-speeders (Vinyl Nivervana's restorations, f'rinstance, or a nice Micro-Seikki) and then get a dedicated 78 RPM machine with its own cart and tone-arm at some later date. There are different EQ curves to consider 'twixt the commonplace RIAA for modern 33s and some of the earlier curves which favour 78s, too. Note old phono preamps gave you quite a selection of EQ curves for just that reason. I would take this choice over the "one size fits all" you seem to be trying to achieve.
"Purist" TTs of all autos tend not to be automatic. Even if you fill that bowl too full and leave the table running all night with the stylus in the run-out groove, you're not going to hurt the record or the stylus.
And there's a happy little fix for that, too, called the Q-UP, see
https://www.amazon.com/Q-UP-The-Tonearm-Lifter/dp/B008OAMD26
which lifts up the tonearm at the end of the record but leaves the platter turning. Low-tech, about $50, and can be installed by an amoeba in about 5 minutes.
To emphasize a bit what Peter W is saying, the most precious component is the vinyl itself, which makes stylus and cartridge alignment and tracking weight most critical in terms of vinyl longevity and sound quality.
IMHO, anti-skating is a less critical consideration, especially with light-weight cartridges that don't gather enough momentum to bugger up the grooves/stylus and, poorly adjusted, can induce some harmful wear to the groove walls. Some of the better entry-level turntables don't even offer it as an option.
Just my pre-coffee tuppence worth.
-d-

Peter W. wrote:

There are many options for b).  But for c), A well-designed linear TT is the best option. I keep a Revox and a Rabco. They are fussy, and a PITA to set up, but after that is completed, and the necessary maintenance is complete - there is nothing better! And, yes, I would start with the hardware first. There is a great deal of mythology, smoke, mirrors and snake-oil surrounding phono pre-amps. So before subscribing to the myths, breathing the smoke or imbibing the oil, consider that this is 100% settled technology since the 1960s.

A record master is cut with a lathe cutter head that travels in a straight line across the record blank.  A "normal" tonearm follows a curved path across the record that's only an approximation of that line.  A linear arm follows the line exactly.  The only limitation of a linear arm is moving it across the record in pace with the spiral groove translation.  

My Souther SLA-3 uses the groove wall to pull the arm across the record.  This would seem to be fraught with problems, but it actually works well.  They used be sold in the US by Lou Souther but he got bought out by Clearaudio and the price has gone way up.

dave

My Dad bought a B&O system in the 70's, sounded pretty good but he was not allowed to get decent speakers due to the WAF.

On a speaker list I belong to, lots of praise for the linear tracking TTs. I have a buddy, retired Coast Guard Master Chief who has one for me up in his garage attic, packed in the original box.
He's not sure what model it is and I'm warned that the 4004 is the one to get, stay away from the rest, that was one opinionated mans opinion at least.  

Perhaps it's time to send out a reminder again to him. What I understand that they have a DIN output.
Would need to come up with some sort of DIN > RCA Adapter. A web search comes up with many options, looks pretty easy to 'Bang' one up.

I really appreciate the help in this!

Aquaazul, bring your favorite LPs and get yourself to the nearest audio specialist store or stores that display high end turntables and listen to some in the $1000 to $2000 range.
A lot of the advice in this thread is rubbish, especially about linear tracking turntables. I heard a Rockport 30 years ago and it was stunning but the arm alone cost $5000 back then.
I've owned a Rabco SL8E and it was an unreliable novelty. I have owned many pivoted arms since the Rabco and all were superior to it. Listening yourself beats trying to sort out
good advice from bad, so go listen.

deepee99 wrote:Blue,
A "well designed" and set-up linear is the most logical, but they are a PITA to set up. I liked my B&O but it long ago laid an egg, nobody around to fix it, and (at least in the B&O's case) cartridge choice was very limited and expensive. Maybe there is an after-market but I never bothered to pursue. It gathers dust at a friend's house.
If I wanted the full three-speed range TT of old, I'd focus on the 2-speeders (Vinyl Nivervana's restorations, f'rinstance, or a nice Micro-Seikki) and then get a dedicated 78 RPM machine with its own cart and tone-arm at some later date. There are different EQ curves to consider 'twixt the commonplace RIAA for modern 33s and some of the earlier curves which favour 78s, too. Note old phono preamps gave you quite a selection of EQ curves for just that reason. I would take this choice over the "one size fits all" you seem to be trying to achieve.
"Purist" TTs of all autos tend not to be automatic. Even if you fill that bowl too full and leave the table running all night with the stylus in the run-out groove, you're not going to hurt the record or the stylus.
And there's a happy little fix for that, too, called the Q-UP, see
https://www.amazon.com/Q-UP-The-Tonearm-Lifter/dp/B008OAMD26
which lifts up the tonearm at the end of the record but leaves the platter turning. Low-tech, about $50, and can be installed by an amoeba in about 5 minutes.
To emphasize a bit what Peter W is saying, the most precious component is the vinyl itself, which makes stylus and cartridge alignment and tracking weight most critical in terms of vinyl longevity and sound quality.
IMHO, anti-skating is a less critical consideration, especially with light-weight cartridges that don't gather enough momentum to bugger up the grooves/stylus and, poorly adjusted, can induce some harmful wear to the groove walls. Some of the better entry-level turntables don't even offer it as an option.
Just my pre-coffee tuppence worth.
-d-

In my talk with Vinyl Nirvana, he told me the that not having auto return was not going to damage anything, LP or stylus. On an LP I was playing a few weeks ago, my auto-return did not kick in, the sound of the needle running in the run out grove bugged me.

Q-Up seems to be the answer.

I was not aware of the different RIAA curves in 33 vs 78.
It does seem to look like I'll have 2 different turntables & phono pre-amp setups if I want to properly listen to those old 78's.

Blue

ramon68 wrote:Aquaazul, bring your favorite LPs and get yourself to the nearest audio specialist store or stores that display high end turntables and listen to some in the $1000 to $2000 range.
A lot of the advice in this thread is rubbish, especially about linear tracking turntables. I heard a Rockport 30 years ago and it was stunning but the arm alone cost $5000 back then.
I've owned a Rabco SL8E and it was an unreliable novelty.  I have owned many pivoted arms since the Rabco and all were superior to it. Listening yourself beats trying to sort out
good advice from bad, so go listen.

Now that is a great idea!

Thanks Ramon

ramon68 wrote:Aquaazul, bring your favorite LPs and get yourself to the nearest audio specialist store or stores that display high end turntables and listen to some in the $1000 to $2000 range.
A lot of the advice in this thread is rubbish, especially about linear tracking turntables. I heard a Rockport 30 years ago and it was stunning but the arm alone cost $5000 back then.
I've owned a Rabco SL8E and it was an unreliable novelty.  I have owned many pivoted arms since the Rabco and all were superior to it. Listening yourself beats trying to sort out
good advice from bad, so go listen.

I will answer this at length tomorrow. But unadulterated BS comes to mind (sorry, Bob).

For playing 78s a Pro-Ject Debut + 78 RPM kit from Sumiko + Ortofon 2M 78 cartridge would make a fairly low cost setup. I am not a huge fan of Pro-Ject turntables--but they can be made to work reasonably well if you are willing to sort out the motor mount.

The Rabco SL 8E in stock form is a curious blend of crude engineering and manufacturing. I have owned and modified several. As a curiosity and hobbyist "gadget" the Rabco is a wonderful platform. As a high performance tonearm, I would put it in the realm of the original AR XA arm, only with audible transport motor noise.

deepee99 wrote:

aguaazul wrote:So, I have a question for all y’all Vinyl lovers. I want to upgrade our current LP playback components.

Where to start with upgrades. Turntable or Phono Pre?

Our turntable is a decent yet entry level Technics SL-BD20, it’s a P-Mount, but we have a Sure M92E cart, a nice upgrade.

Our phono preamp is a Bellari VP130 MM. Upgrades: Tube & Power Supply, sounds great for the price.

I inherited an nice LP collection, 500+ records. There are about ~ 75 - 78 RPM discs so we a looking to get a turntable that plays 78s too. Plus, I’ve been picking up LPs so we have a decent collection.

I don’t mind swapping head shells to have a special 78 stylus if necessary.

My question is, where to go 1st? Turntable or Phono Pre?

These components are gifts from my family to me. I buy what I want for x-mass & birthday (April).
When I install them, I say thanks for the present, they don’t know what me get me anymore so it works.

What I’m looking at: PH16 & a Technics SL-1200GR.  What's 1st?

Thanks,
Aguaazul

Blue,
Have you spoken with Dave Archimbault at Vinylnirvana.com? I would get an old, thoroughly rehabbed Thorens or even AR table from him. Detachable headshells. Sumpin' like this, which is what I have:
https://vinylnirvana.com/product/thorens-td-160-super-reproduction-new-jelco-550s-tonearm-solid-cherry-plinth-ortofon-2m-bronze-cartridge
except with the 2m black cartridge.
Does beautiful work. Vibration and rumble-free. Regas and VPIs (I have owned both) are junk by comparison. Can't speak to the Technics, although I do have a Technics RS1700 R2R you'd have to pry from my cold, dead fingers, so prolly good stuff.
As to phono preamps, the PH-16 uses readily available 6922-type tubes (6- or-7DJ8s can also be used and good ones can be had far cheaper than equivalent quality 6922s).
P.S.
Stay close by the mailbox :)
deepee

I can vouch for Dave at Vinyl Nirvana. He's a good guy and does great, honest work.
I inherited a Thorens TD125 mk2 and he overhauled it for me and it came back like it was 1975 again. I've also had helpful consults with him. BTW, that's what sparked this enjoyable audio habit hole inn the first place.

I'm using it with a VTA ST120, Nagaoka MM cart, and a Schiit Mani for the time being. I hope to get an SP12 w/phone kit from Roy at some point.

Sidenote: It had Shure V15 OEM variant that I sadly killed while cleaning and I can't find an reasonable replacement stylus. Neither Shure nor Jico could 100% confirm the fit as it doesn't say V15. Don't mean to hijack the discussion but if anyone has an idea, please let me know.

I do not think is ideal configuration tonearm Sumiko and cartridge Ortofón 2m for 78rpm records.
The support force required by 78rpm's records is approaching 8gr.
A better option is a high mass arm and a less compliant needle.