What phono, preamp do I want?

I have been really enjoying the ST-120 for a few weeks now. Driving it from the pre out on the Marantz 2245. Now I'm looking at preamps. So what I'm looking at is possibly the VTA PH-14 and the VTA SP-14. I'd like to hear your thoughts on them from you that have them in your system. Also what else might I consider? What are preamps you love and what preamps just didnt cut it. My thoughts if I go the VTA route is to get the PH-14 first, get it assembled and tested and then then the SP-14. May not be till early next year for the SP-14. I been looking for pics of the PH-14 inside assembled but haven't been able to find one.

Thanks

Mr. C

Have you thought about the PH-16?  I built a PH16x a while back and absolutely love it.  Now building an SP12 but plan to use it mainly for digital sources.

Dave

Thanks Blob.  Taking a closer look at PH-16 it sure seems impressive.  And If I read correctly it'll handle almost any MM cartridge.  That's very appealing to me.  That's what I was trying to get out of this thread. Why the SP-12 over the SP-14?

Mr C wrote:Thanks Blob.  Taking a closer look at PH-16 it sure seems impressive.  And If I read correctly it'll handle almost any MM cartridge.  That's very appealing to me.  That's what I was trying to get out of this thread. Why the SP-12 over the SP-14?

It'll handle high output mc cartridges and any mm cartidges.  I use a step up transformer for my low output Denon DL103 mc cartridge which has about 0.3 mv output.

I'm building an SP12 vs the SP14 because I prefer the sound of (I think) of 12AU7 tubes over 6SN7s.  The SP14 may actually be a better preamp, so it may be your best choice.  I don't need it for phono playback but it may help with playing digital downloads which I've found don't sound good directly into my ST70.  You can ask Roy...

I think that if you use a MM cart. the PH 16 is overkill. I think.

I should state most of my listening is from vinyl. A few CDs. No digital at this point. I haven't ventured into MC cartridges yet. The PH-14 is half the price of the PH-16 so I have to weigh the differences between the two.

Dave_in_Va wrote:I think that if you use a MM cart. the PH 16 is overkill. I think.

No, I think you still need a SUT for the really tweaky stuff. MMy PH-16 tracks right down the middle about about 3.3 uV cart output. They're 6922-powered but you can do a whole lot better with better tubes.
Roy had a dandy little line pre-amp, the SP-13, which was an SP-14 using noval rather than octal based tubes. I had an SP-13 for awhile and quite enjoyed it. I bet Roy at least has some board(s) left over from that project. Went to the SP-14, then took a flyer on Don Sachs' DS2 SP-14-based preamp and have never looked back. And I certainly wouldn't skimp on the phono-side, which you say you mostly listen to. The PH-16 is the way to fly, again with the caveat that a lot of non-6922 labels will wring every note out of that -16 and your vinyl. Suggestions: Siemens ECC88 or 7308 gold pins; or (I am told) la creme de la creme, Mullard 2492s, in those four holes.

I think I must have a PH 15 (?). 6922 type tubes but no dip switches for MC. I thought the dip switches were for MC carts.
I know there are some really low output MC carts that probably need something really expensive to work.
Roy, it would neat to have a page of discontinued models so we know what's what.

Dave_in_Va wrote:I think I must have a PH 15 (?). 6922 type tubes but no dip switches for MC. I thought the dip switches were for MC carts.
I know there are some really low output MC carts that probably need something really expensive to work.
Roy, it would neat to have a page of discontinued models so we know what's what.

Dave, the Ortofon 2m Black outputs about 3.3uV if I remember. The DP switches on the PH-16 are probably already set for the 47kOhm recommended by Ortofon. So basically, plug-and-play.
The Black is <$600 but for <$300-ish you can get the 2M Bronze without the Black's expensive Shibata stylus then when you are flush can upgrade to the Shibata.
Ortofon also has a discontinued but plentiful earlier version of the 2M series for 'way cheap. I would talk to some TT or arm makes and run one of those down for maybe $200 in the Black.
-d-

Dave, I have the 2M Black (bought on your recommendation) and love it. The 2M Black isn't under $600. Is Idaho a different country where everything is cheaper?
MY PH 14 (or 15?) has no dip switches. I run USA Amperex 7308 tubes in it. My LP collection sounds great.

Roy will correct me if wrong, but I think I was the first to order the SP 14 when it was announced. I had Roy, or one of hisworkshop elves, assembleit forme, and I posted a review of how it compared against an earlier pre amp design of Roy’s with which I had been perfectly happy.

Well it’s been a few years now, and it’s never crossed my mind to replace it insearch of better. This pre amp is staggeringly good, and astonishing value for money. A couple years ago I had Don Sachs do a little tweaking with specialized caps and resistors in select places, and dropping in some cv181 tubes for me.

I’m confident you’ll be giddy with excitement over this amp, or Don’s customized version of it.

Do we have other site members who build a custom version?

Going to a different amp, I don’t even want to think about what you’d have to pay to get better. This amp still gets my wholehearted and enthusiastic recommendation. Years of familiarity have not bred contempt here!

I have an SP12 + PH12 and I like it very much. I assume the 14 and 16 can only be better. Nice thing about the older kits though is they can both fit in a single chassis, which to me is an advantage. I also have a restored PAS 3x. Also a good choice if the vintage sound is appealing to you. It is difficult to describe the sonic differences since they are so subjective. I would say the SP/PH is more transparent if that matters, but of course not as transparent as no preamp at all, and the PAS is more "tubey" and of course has tone controls. The PH12 phono section is much quieter than the PAS, but the line stages are about the same. All of Roy's products are excellent and you really cannot go wrong, especially as a DIY kit. Your plan to build the PH14 first sounds like a good approach.

rjpjnk wrote: All of Roy's products are excellent and you really cannot go wrong, especially as a DIY kit. Your plan to build the PH14 first sounds like a good approach.

I echo that.  Earlier this year I built a PH16x and was amazed at how transparent and detailed it sounded.  I have been listening to it using just a stepped volume attenuator into my ST70.  

Recently I bought an SP12 kit, not because I felt I needed it with my phono playback but because I couldn't get my digital/DAC downloads to sound anywhere near as good.  Day before yesterday I finished the SP12 and plugged the PH16 into it.  I was amazed that no only did phono not sound worse, ie, less transparent with the added line stage, but it sounded better.  More solid imaging, cleaned up massed orchestral passages, more drive, etc...On the digital side, it's a lot better but still paling in comparison to analog.  (I probably need a better DAC).

I left room in the SP12 chassis to add a PH14 board and transformer later.  Even though I probably won't do so, I am certain that it would make an absolutely superb full function preamp.

dave

What record player are you using, Dave?

Tube Nube wrote:What record player are you using, Dave?

Old Linn LP12 with Souther linear tracking tonearm and a Denon DL103 cartridge.

dave

Ah hahhhhhh! I, too, have a Linn from the late 80’s or early 90’s, and I rarely listen to my digital source (which is pretty good). It just isn’t as good.

I got mine in 1985.  About 5 years ago I had to replace the power supply board and motor.  It's been going strong since.

I'm trying to get digital to sound good, but the only way is to not listen to analog...

I got hit with that upgrade bug all at once, when a friend turned me on to Dynaco, which I'd never heard of. So after buying and building my tube amps, I set to work on the old LP12. I think I've gone 3 somewhat overlapping stages of renovations with it: First it was the Basik to the Inttok, the updated "quiet motor" I think it was called, and the Cetech subchassis and armboard.

Second, I went from Ittok to Audio Origami PU7 tonearm, Cetech to (Analogue Innovations) Sole subchassis, from Linn Adikt to an entry level Transfiguration MC cartridge, and Linn felt matt to (AI) Plattamat. Then in round three, I scored a used Lingo I, updated to new and improved AI subchassis Mk. VII and armboard, replaced the suspension springs with the AI rubber bushings, and also updated the Plattamat to the (significantly improved) Plattmat II.

I don't know what to do next. I've always been interested in linear tracking tonearms . . . . I suppose if I have a good year someday, I might see if I can swing one of these really top tier cartridges. Spouse approval factor may prove a hurdle there. Someone has to protect me from myself.

Gosh sorry if I put you off to sleep with all that.

Wow! You certainly have gone all out. I have toyed with the idea of an upgraded sub chassis but my next step will be to a new cartridge. The Denon is nice, but I can hear that plastic body...and a line contact stylus of some sort would be nice. And a new mat to replace my original black felt job.

Or, you can just give me your cast-offs!

Nothing to be ashamed of, Nube, nothing to be ashamed of.
Current TT iterations all seem to require about $3,000 of sound-proofing but don't really sound as good as my Thorens or your Linns unless you tape a quarter to the top of the non-removable headshell, too.

deepee99 wrote:Nothing to be ashamed of, Nube, nothing to be ashamed of.
Current TT iterations all seem to require about $3,000 of sound-proofing but don't really sound as good as my Thorens or your Linns unless you tape a quarter to the top of the non-removable headshell, too.

Hah! Back in my teen years, we got away with taping a penny. Now with inflation, and the high cost of good record players, nothing less than a quarter will do. Of course, US quarters made of silver sound better than those plated copper ones. And Canadian quarters? Don’t even go there.

Hey SolderBlob,

I tried to send you a PM, but it doesn’t seem to be actually sending anything. Can you check and confirm if my message went through?

Thanks,
Brenton

I got it.

Dave

solderblob wrote:I got it.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Glad that came through!

Brenton

there are literally THOUSANDS of phono preamps available on the market, currently from Tubes4HiFi I've got just two models, the PH14 which is a clone of the EAR834P and my PH16.
You really can't go wrong with either of them. The PH14 kit is $299 and the PH16 kit is $650, either one will compare with others selling for 3-5x the price.
Also either available assembled/tested/warrantied if you want plug & play.
www.tubes4hifi.com/pre11.htm