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    Silver Wire Interconnects

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    Kramer

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    Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Kramer on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:12 pm

    I wanted to see if anyone else here has experience with pure silver interconnects and share my experience. After reading about signal quality and the benefits of using silver I figured I would give them a try.

    I purchased some 99.999% pure 24awg solid silver wire, some slightly oversized ptfe tube, and some KLEI RCA plugs. It couldn't be any easier to put them together, put silver wire in Teflon tube, measure and cut to proper length, and terminate with cardas silver solder onto the RCA plugs. They are expensive materials but compared to some of the snake oil interconnects on the market tis but a drop in the bucket. They are unshielded but that doesn't seem to be a issue much for me, my next pair I plan to make will hopefully address this issue anyway.

    At first listen they sounded bright and brittle, not great, but still a lot of fine details not heard before shown through and I was already impressed. I left them in the chain with the amp off but the DAC playing music for two days without listening. When I powered the amp up and tested them again I was pretty blown away. The lows had come back with a vengeance and they no longer sounded bright or brittle at all, very smooth with a very accurate stereo image. I am very impressed, I never thought it would make such a difference in my system. I was also a non believer in "burn in" for cables but now I know for myself it does make a difference. The interconnects I was using before these was the Blue Jeans LC-1 and in my opinion there is little comparison, these are really outstanding little cables.




    Anyway figured it was worth a share with how impressed I was with the improvement.


    Last edited by Kramer on Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

    ltusler

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by ltusler on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:23 pm

    Looks like you have a fair amount of twist in the cable, so unless you are getting some interference i wouldn't worry about shielding.
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:32 pm

    no doubt silver is a great conductor,useful especially with long leads.
    someone else mentioned to me in a different thread,changing the connectors on the amp to silver.
    no im sorry... he(deepee99) said if someone made tube sockets and tubes with pins of silver, he'd buy them
    but ... silver... nnnyep.... high cost of good audio.
    .
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    Kramer

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Kramer on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:07 pm

    dmagazz wrote:no doubt silver is a great conductor,useful especially with long leads.
    someone else mentioned to me in a different thread,changing the connectors on the amp to silver.
    no im sorry... he(deepee99) said if someone made tube sockets and tubes with pins of silver, he'd buy them
    but ... silver... nnnyep.... high cost of good audio.
    .

    It made such a difference its making me consider replacing the copper signal wire in the amp with 21awg silver. Not really a easy task but I think if I take my time it will be worth the effort.
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    deepee99

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:41 pm

    I am sold on silver inter-connects as well as silver speaker wire. Mine are all unshielded and no interference issues whatsoever. Nothing fancy here; I didn't hand-make them but Paul Laudati at Clear Day makes some very affordable runs with good terminations. There is indeed an improvement in detail, and yes, they do require some burn-in time (much as that sounds like hocus pocus). I have no idea why they sound better than copper, but they do.


    Last edited by deepee99 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misspelling)
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    Kramer

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Kramer on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:00 pm

    deepee99 wrote:I am sold on silver inter-connects as well as silver speaker wire. Mine are all unshielded and no interference issues whatsoever. Nothing fancy here; I didn't hand-make them but Paul Laudati at Clear Day makes some very affordable runs with good terminations. There is indeed an improvement in detail, and yes, they do require some burn-in time (much as that sounds like hocus pocus). I have no idea why they sound better than copper, but they do.

    What kind of wire are you using for speaker runs if you wouldn't mind sharing? I was looking into that as well but it was looking quite expensive.

    (I checked out Paul's website, thanks for the info.)


    Last edited by Kramer on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Found the website.)
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    deepee99

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by deepee99 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:16 pm

    Kramer wrote:
    deepee99 wrote:I am sold on silver inter-connects as well as silver speaker wire. Mine are all unshielded and no interference issues whatsoever. Nothing fancy here; I didn't hand-make them but Paul Laudati at Clear Day makes some very affordable runs with good terminations. There is indeed an improvement in detail, and yes, they do require some burn-in time (much as that sounds like hocus pocus). I have no idea why they sound better than copper, but they do.

    What kind of wire are you using for speaker runs if you wouldn't mind sharing? I was looking into that as well but it was looking quite expensive.
    I use these guys. Surf around Paul's website
    http://cleardaycables.com/double-shotgun/
    or give him a call. He offers a trial period. Fine work.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:11 am

    For the record, and from an unbeliever - if one is going to invest in high-end cables, patch-cords and interconnects, silver is the way to go. It is the closest thing to a room temperature super-conductor as exists, and its common oxides are also conductive.

    Note also that fine-silver is far more resistant to oxidation than alloyed silver, and that most plating is fine-silver. Plated copper will be as good as pure silver wire.

    https://www.etsy.com/listing/59994471/non-tarnish-silver-plated-wire-large?gpla=1&gao=1&utm_campaign=shopping_us_UnkamenSupplies_sfc_osa&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_custom1=0&utm_content=5613242&gclid=CjwKCAjw68zZBRAnEiwACw0eYUqIxEcdqYeHMWi0tR-e1JL_1x-53ZrAu8Idd22raIcLthzm4C51NRoCC8QQAvD_BwE

    ramon68

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by ramon68 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:39 am

    Remember yesterday, when you were perfectly happy to listen to music on your system, instead of wire?!
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:43 am

    ramon68 wrote:Remember yesterday, when you were perfectly happy to listen to music on your system, instead of wire?!

    And with one (1) black rotary wall-phone in the kitchen. If you were rich, you had a dedicated line instead of a party line.

    wildiowa

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by wildiowa on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:46 am

    At my advanced age and having been on stage with Marshall stacks in my ears for many years, i am not sure I could pick up the change or improvement from using more expensive and exotic materials as you describe. However, I applaud those who are able to hear these subtleties in the never ending quest for the audio white buffalo!
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    bluemeanies

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by bluemeanies on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 am

    Silver cables=Snake oil?
    I have compared two-three high end cables and none of them audibly had significant differences (better sounding). The real difference $$$.
    However, if there are people that are enjoying over-priced cables and they hear a difference I say enjoy your music nirvana.
    I am enjoying mine but have some money in the bank.

    wildiowa

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by wildiowa on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:34 am

    This may have been debated before...but would such upgrades only be viable if it were incorporated all through the electrical chain? Like using silver all the way from the wall outlet throughout the amp and right to the speakers themselves? Or do incremental and isolated uses change the sound enough to be viable or detectable? Like using a premium coffee but still running it through a funky dirty coffee maker? Not sure that's a good analogy, but hope you get the gist of my question...
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:31 am

    wildiowa wrote:This may have been debated before...but would such upgrades only be viable if it were incorporated all through the electrical chain? Like using silver all the way from the wall outlet throughout the amp and right to the speakers themselves? Or do incremental and isolated uses change the sound enough to be viable or detectable? Like using a premium coffee but still running it through a funky dirty coffee maker? Not sure that's a good analogy, but hope you get the gist of my question...

    Mpffffff.... RANT WARNING (and, there are Dynaco tube items involved):

    A)  Our power comes from the PMJ and we pay a very tiny, and decreasing, premium for it to be directed to/from the Iberdrola Wind Farm in Columbia County, PA. It is brought to us via Aluminum & Steel cable at ~138 KV after being inverted and stepped up at the farm. Overall, about 100 miles. At the sub-station about 1 mile from us, it is dropped to 13,200 V for transmission via overhead lines to a pole-mounted transformer about 100 yards from the house, and then via triplex to the SE cable (200A) at the house. 100% via aluminum conductors.

    Thence to the electrical panel, via a 200A main breaker to a 20A distribution breaker via 12-gauge wire to the wall-plate - hospital-grade 20A device. That comes to One Inversion, Three transformations, Four switches, two breakers and two fuses in all - before it even sees the receptacle.

    Please do not try to convince me that anything after all this is going to make one whit of difference - assuming that the line-cord is, at least, adequate for the load.

    B) Friction connections: All friction connections are suspect, 100% of the time - yet they are sadly neglected for the most part. We are all familiar with tube sockets - how many of us are as aware of our RCA jacks and plugs? How many of use use Banana Jacks and plugs in "friction-only" mode? Often carrying many watts. Putting fancy cables onto a Banana Jack in friction-only mode is much like putting a 4" pipe on a 1/2" valve.

    C) Clamped Connections: They also heat/cool/heat/cool/expand/contract/expand/contract. It really pays to clean and remake them every so often - more-so in a house full of cats, dogs and occasional grandchildren and grand-puppies.

    D) Fact & Theory: the amount of current any given conductor can carry without losses is a function of surface-area, general conductivity, temperature, length and conductor purity. All of which can be calculated. There are some basic things - stranded by weight is a better conductor than solid-by-weight. Conductors, within broad limits cannot be too big, but can be too small. Most currents running around in audio components are far 'less' than the conductor limits they are running within. Keep in mind that the windings in that Audio Output Transformer are often as fine as 30 gauge, more typically around 22 gauge. And all your B+ and all your signal goes through that wire. So, the brute fact of the matter, and the physics, and that-which-can-(and may)-be-measured is a function of conductor material, conductor purity, surface area, temperature and length. Nothing Else. A rusty coat hanger will do just fine as speaker wire if the connections are sufficiently tight and the distance is sufficiently short. Physics. Whereas "Skin Effect" as formally described is not a factor at audio frequencies, the skin of whatever conductor in use does all the 'work' - and why it is that stranded wire is a better conductor than solid wire, all other things being equal.  

    We have five active stereo systems at home, and 1.5 at our summer house (we use a Dynaco SCA-80 into AR speakers for the CD Player sound). All of them use conventional cables, patch-cords and various other conductors but for the Main System that uses a set of Monster Cable speaker wires obtained at a garage sale, and monster-cable patch-cords (same source) for the phono input. Of all this, Dynaco is involved in three of them, of those three, two are committed to Dynaco. Of the two that are committed, one is also committed to tubes, the other involves them. If one wants to understand the difference, consider Ham and Eggs. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed. I would posit that I spend more time cleaning and tightening connections than rolling tubes by a pretty large margin. Y'all try it sometime on your main stereo - end-to-end. Please report the differences, if any. Note that this is, in some cases, a hood-up operation, especially as it relates to RCA jacks.

    wildiowa

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by wildiowa on Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:44 am

    Yes after posting I wondered about the transformers and tranny wiring...would those not also have to be silver so as not to be the "weak link" in the whole shebang? I think it is safe to say we are all at a minimum affecianados, some more obsessed than others, and like motor car hobbyists or others are always seeking improvements and little tweaks to give us an edge in performance. Then throw in some superstition and black magic for good measure!
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    corndog71

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by corndog71 on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:24 am

    At the beginning of the millenium silver was relatively cheap.  I could get teflon insulated silver wire for under $2/ft.  Then the market went crazy and the price quadrupled.  Been out of the silver game since.  I still have a few silver cables laying around.  They sound great but for most of my gear I went back to copper.  Kimber Kable basically got me into this hobby roughly 23 years ago when I ran a pair of PBJ cables in my car stereo.  Compared to the freebie cables that were installed it was like pulling ear plugs out of my ears.  I heard details in the music I had no idea existed!  I could understand lyrics better!  I could even hear the different cymbals being hit by the drummer!  

    Blue Jeans sells great Belden made cables too if shielding is a priority.  Shielding aside the Blue Jeans LC-1 is a good cable however I've noticed in order to hear the same level of detail that the PBJ reveals I have to turn up the volume quite a bit.  I've owned Kimber's silver KCAG too and while they had a bit more air and maybe slightly better bass than the PBJ the difference was not really worth the jump in cost.

    Tom

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Tom on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:41 am

    Wait...
    Wouldn't you need a solid silver (fine of course) chassis?
    Or two for the M-125s?
    When oh when will VTA offer this essential upgrade?

    Shocked

    wildiowa

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by wildiowa on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:55 am

    Curses to those Hunt Brothers! Recall when they manipulated the silver market...was it in the 70s?? At that time I was a reporter and the cost of photographic material went absolutely through the roof.
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:19 pm

    wildiowa wrote:Curses to those Hunt Brothers! Recall when they manipulated the silver market...was it in the 70s?? At that time I was a reporter and the cost of photographic material went absolutely through the roof.

    I remember this time quite fondly. I had picked up some incredibly ugly, gaudy and tasteless "Award" cups and trays at a flea market, I think it came to about four-five pounds of Sterling Silver that I had planned to give to my then girl-friend who did a good deal of metalsmithing. I got if for something like $50 or so. Shortly thereafter we broke up, so it sat in the basement for a few years.

    I walked into a "WE BUY SILVER" storefront, and walked out with $3,500. Not but a few days later, the price crashed.
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    Kramer

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Kramer on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:32 pm

    corndog71 wrote:At the beginning of the millenium silver was relatively cheap.  I could get teflon insulated silver wire for under $2/ft.  Then the market went crazy and the price quadrupled.  Been out of the silver game since.  I still have a few silver cables laying around.  They sound great but for most of my gear I went back to copper.  Kimber Kable basically got me into this hobby roughly 23 years ago when I ran a pair of PBJ cables in my car stereo.  Compared to the freebie cables that were installed it was like pulling ear plugs out of my ears.  I heard details in the music I had no idea existed!  I could understand lyrics better!  I could even hear the different cymbals being hit by the drummer!  

    Blue Jeans sells great Belden made cables too if shielding is a priority.  Shielding aside the Blue Jeans LC-1 is a good cable however I've noticed in order to hear the same level of detail that the PBJ reveals I have to turn up the volume quite a bit.  I've owned Kimber's silver KCAG too and while they had a bit more air and maybe slightly better bass than the PBJ the difference was not really worth the jump in cost.

    $2/ft I wish that was still the case. I would like to try some solid silver speaker wire but not at the cost of more than my amp for some pretty long runs even DIY. I think I may eventually get some silver plated stranded copper and test that out, much more affordable and may yield similar results. I did get some short runs of some neotech lest rectangular wire for the next pair of interconnects I plan on making to test if that offers any increase in dynamics.

    To clarify there is nothing wrong with the LC-1 I still use them in my system, they're a great cable especially for subs and at a very reasonable price. I also use the Canare 4S11 from Blue Jeans for my current speaker runs and I really like them. The locking banana plugs are a really nice addition.
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:38 pm

    wildiowa,
    for those who just HAVE to have the best(most expensive) way out.
    like- silver wire tranny's, you could have Lundahl Transformers make you a set.
    i myself think it would be a waste,being that the power trannys output ,is what it needs to be! and the output tranny's,well not so sure if they may benefit a different tinge of frequency or not,but otherwise i think 16 ohms is 16 ohms when wound to it.in fact somehow i imagine maybe you may loose bass response,possibly gain high.
    i make custom wound guitar pickups,ive never wound with silver. but i am gonna try that as soon as i can attain just enough to do a wind,(say 6000 ft or so of plain enamel 42 gauge) and see the difference between copper and silver, frequency wise.
    as for speaker wire. i use 12-awg stranded copper in a clear soft insulator to get the signal there. ive had it quite a while, i think its made by monster, for car audio.(any audio really)lol,even lamp cord if you wanted to.
    but anyway. i noticed all these nuances when i hooked up my st 70(that i just obtained)it blew my mind, im hearing things that weren't there before,frequency ranges that bring out keyboards,piano's,and the ringing of the strings on a bass,and breathing,and sliding of fingers on strings,and the sound of a foot pedal working a bass drum. the exploding POP of a snare in conjunction with a bass drum, background talk,ALL KINDS of new things popped up.
    and all this is from stranded copper, i think silver is a unicorn of sorts. although in long runs it just may have a output difference. i would like to see a challenge of the 2 using 12awg in wire lengths of 100 feet, and measure the output,and frequency spectrum's in comparison to each other.
    by the way,my old stereo was a pyle 250 watt SS amp.
    lol,maybe it's not a fair comparison huh Peter,W?
    I figure the pyle to be junk at this point.
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:45 pm

    interestingly enough though, i did find someone who actually did a test comparison of copper vs silver, and found silver had alot of group delay. not good i take it.
    check out the post on head-fi
    head-fi.org/threads/copper-vs-silver-measured-surprising.755418/
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:59 pm

    dmagazz wrote:interestingly enough though, i did find someone who actually did a test comparison of copper vs silver, and found silver had alot of group delay. not good i take it.
    check out the post on head-fi
    head-fi.org/threads/copper-vs-silver-measured-surprising.755418/

    Read on.

    a) The cables are not otherwise identical.
    b) The cables are interacting with other parts of the system in the one test.
    c) When those other parts were removed from the test, the discrepancies went away.

    And so forth. Somewhat similar to testing regular gas in a Porsche, and premium fuel in a Yugo. They are both small cars but....
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    dmagazz

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by dmagazz on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:03 pm

    ohhhh, yes.
    i should have known better than to look at only the 1 post
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    Peter W.

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    Re: Silver Wire Interconnects

    Post by Peter W. on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:11 pm

    dmagazz wrote:ohhhh, yes.
    i should have known better than to look at only the 1 post

    No harm, no foul.

    I have strong opinions - which I *hope* are fact-based, but in this venue I try to be civil, as I have proven myself to be quite wrong on more than a few occasions.

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